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Kral Arms  This is for unregulated gun haters

We were taking a break at the shop today and started talking about the shop gun and how long has it been since we shot it. The conversation started because a new guy asked what was in that case behind the cylinder machine. My buddy insisted it was last year when we each took a crow with it. So I dug it out of the case. The gauge read just under its max fill pressure and the mag still had 8 left in it. I walked out to the dumpster and drew a picture while my buddy set up for a 50 yard shot. That’s where we have it zeroed. First shot was spot on and full power.

I‘m not saying a regulated PCP can’t sit for a year and still be spot on at 50 yards and deliver a full power shot. What I am saying is one without a reg will.

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FX  Opinions On Possible PCP Build/Specs

Hey Everyone,

New member here. Looking forward to all the info and knowledge you can offer.

Farmer, California, ground squirrels in our almond and walnut orchards. Squirrels are super skittish and won’t come out at all if I’m any closer than 80-ish yards - no matter how quiet I am, how still I hold, or how long I wait. I currently use a Savage B17 Precision that I love. I’m making fingernail sized groups at 50 yards with it. But it’s super loud and I’m having to wait 20, 30, 40 minutes before another one comes out.

Been looking into PCP air rifles for a while. I need something that is very accurate and consistent at 80 to 100 yards (I understand that wind/weather conditions will be more of a factor). I need something that is super quiet. I need something that I’ll be happy with for a long time without wanting to upgrade to something else in a few years.

I called Utah Airguns and spoke with them. Very helpful and informative. They helped me narrow down my possible considerations to a single build. I wanted to get some opinions from others on the following:

Impact M4 “Sniper” variant (700mm)
.25 cal pellets, 34 grain
Element Theos
Impulse moderator
Backbone and Loki rail added to rife
Bag rider added to rifle

Assuming I do my part on good trigger control, follow through, and shooting posture (on a table or laying prone mostly), and assuming wind is at a minimum or no wind at all, what kind of groups would you expect from a build like that in the 80 to 100 yard range? Should I have it tuned for slugs instead? I’m seeing a lot of conflicting reviews on YouTube on if pellets, hybrids, or slugs are better. Should I do a different caliber or grain? I’m seeing some people say that .30 cal is the way to go.

I appreciate any feedback and insight you all might have for me. I feel like going to air rifles is A LOT to learn. I apologize for any autocorrect errors or mistakes - typing this all up on my phone.
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HW90K 177 tuning help

I have a HW90k that I think might have an issue.

With the pressure pumped to around 18bar I get a large fps spread from 720 - 770 using JSB diablo exacts. I feel like 18bar is a bit high for the fps I'm getting in 177? The barrel has droop but looks completely straight so I'm assuming that is coming from the lockup; could that be enough to effect spread and velocity?

Thank you.

Optics  SOLD Wts hawke frontier 34mm 3x18x50 ffp

Up for sale is a basically new 34mm 3x18x50 ffp scope. This scope focuses closer than the 15 yds it's listed (I can measure when I'm back home) Rest easy with hawkes life warranty. price drop now shipped $510 pp ff or pay fees ....this is a fantastic deal. This scope could basically be listed as new .
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PCP Rifle  NLA Giffard 8mm Rifle (co2) reduced!

Very decent 8mm Giffard Rifle.. it’s Co2 powered and shoots very well,. Comes with 310 round ball and a co2 charging adapter. The barrel has some freckling,as shown and the buttplate is chipped also shown, it’s shooting near 600 fps and is decently accurate..not bad for a rifle nearing 175 yrs old.
made in france, and serial numbers match except for the interchangeable tank.
1800.00 plus shipping in a hard case..ideally,a face to face would be best
Location…Lima Ohio

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FX  How many dry shots to bleed the plenum?

Hi,
I've been arguing with someone about how many shots you need to fire before the 62cc micro plenum of the FX PANTHERA HUNTER COMPACT bleeds.
He said that a good rifle will bleed in 1 or 2 shots.
I said that according to power settings of reg and hammer wheel it can get empty after 1 or 2 or even 10 shots.
Can anyone set the reg to something around 100-120bar and tell me how many shots it takes to bleed the plenum while tank is removed ?
Please help as I want to return the rifle I have cause I think it's faulty somehow in a valve.
But the seller doesn't want to accept the return as he said I have a better than normal piece.

PCP Rifle  SOLD Edgun Leshiy 2 350mm .30 , 350cc,repr, behemoth w custom baffles, diablo pellets


I am looking to sell my Edgun Leshiy 2 repr 350mm alpha precision .30. The L2 includes an extended behemoth mod with custom 3dprinted baffles created by @dorcula, 350cc 315 bar leshiy 2 specific tank mfd 7/20, bcm gunfighter grip, phase 5 aluminum vfg which was a tight fit and caused wear show in pictures, 1 mostly full diablo exact 44.75, 2 full and 1 less than half diablo hades 44.75, 2 magazines, magnet for mags, fill probe which ill also include extra orings for, monstrom scope mount and bsa sweet 22 scope, box manual and all other items shown. I also replaced the trigger pin pivot ball with this one from ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/334311093241 which was the cause and subsequent fix of the only real issue I've had with the gun other than an oring. There are a few other minor marks on rails and near the valve block. I attached pictures of the mentioned issues, if you'd like more or anything specific please let me know.

I am not really looking for any trades or to separate it, I kind of just threw in the scope so i didn't have to deal with it. My wife and I are planning to move out of the country in 10 months is the only reason I'm looking to sell it.

Asking $1850 shipped in the lower 48

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N/A  Springer valuation help needed: HW35 and FWB 124 Sport

Hello, it turns out I am not much of an airgun guy and just shoot yard varmints with my old Sheridan. Just pulled these two out of the safe and would like to move at least one of them.

Can you give me a range of value for each one? HW35 and FWB Sport 124.

Thanks in advance.

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When I buy a gun it’s almost always defective- MANUFACTURERS PAY ATTENTION

How often do you buy a new gun and find it defective in one way or another? I can’t be the only one.. Mine is like every other one has had issues. From $99-$3000 doesn’t matter. Share please. If manufacturers don’t fix this and we keep buying and fixing they’ll just keep building crap at rising prices every year. Be professional with your answers please we don’t want to shut business down rather change business practices for the betterment of our beloved sport.

PCP Pistol  SOLD As New T9 Pistol w/ Case (Semi-Auto .357/9mm)

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This thing is extremely accurate. .357/9mm semi-auto. Can use one or both tanks. Brand new from Airgun Tactical. Only shot from the bench to film the promotional video, then put back in the box. Brand new condition. Includes case and 2 magazines. Scope not inlcuded. Full video here. You can PM me here or email me at [email protected] or call or text me at 360-844-0962

$799 + free shipping.

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PCP Pistol  NLA For Sale: Airgun Technologies Manul .22 Caliber PCP Pistol – Precision, Power, and Pure Fun! Updated Price

Looking for an airgun that perfectly blends high-quality craftsmanship with pinpoint accuracy? Look no further! I'm selling my Airgun Technologies Manul .22 caliber PCP pistol – and trust me, this beauty is not just a piece of equipment; it's an experience.

**Why You'll Love It:**

- **Top-Notch Build Quality:** Crafted with meticulous attention to detail, the Manul is built to last. Its robust construction and sleek design make it a reliable companion for both seasoned shooters and beginners.
- **Unmatched Accuracy:** Whether you're target shooting or pest control, this pistol delivers tight groups consistently. The precision-engineered barrel ensures every shot hits its mark, making it perfect for those who demand accuracy.
- **Super Fun to Shoot:** The Manul isn't just about performance – it's about enjoyment too. Smooth trigger action, customizable settings, and a satisfying feel make every shooting session a blast.

Whether you're adding to your collection or looking for your first high-quality PCP pistol, the Manul is a choice you won't regret. I'm looking to sell quickly, so don’t miss out on this fantastic deal!

To quiet its bark, and as an added value to the low price, I’m including the attached AGT LDC for free as well (see pictures)…

Payment of $749 $729 get this pistol to you with prepaid USPS Priority Mail for free (or UPS Ground if you prefer) - for this sale, I’d prefer PayPal only with F&F - I believe my feedback merits not letting PayPal take a 4% cut.

I have aggressively priced this over $100 below the lowest price ($150 below actually) that you can find on the web, in stock, because I have my eye on another project.

Why am I selling? Simply put, I have big hands and sausage style fingers, and this airgun doesn’t seem perfectly fit for my dexterity. YMMV.

Finally, I will be unreachable the weekend of the 24th - please be patient - I will respond to all inquiries on Monday evening, the 27th.

Thanks Friends!
Mark
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Realistic slug expectations

So I have my Taipan Veteran Long that has a great barrel on it. Arguably one of my best shooting guns I've owned. Probably avg .3" groups at 50yds as it is with JTS 18gr at 920fps. I've tried slugs in many guns previously but nothing had really shown promise. Not really even close. I've tried a couple slugs in this gun but no joy. Someone talked about VK XLHP 22gr slugs so thought why not try them kind of as a last chance try. To me surprise they are amazing and have such a great HP for pesting. I only bought a 100 but I've put about 40 on paper. So far I've yet to have a "flyer" and most groups are around .4-.5" at 50yds. Haven't had a group over .5" except a 10 shot group alittle closer to .6". I tried 2 different days and both days results were similar. Really I get about 4 shots around .25" and 1 opens it up. I think it's safe to say my results are very good for a realistic expectation? I think I'm going to buy a few hundred more and use them when days are more windy. Or to get that satisfying POP on pests lol. Maybe fine tune to see if I can get them a hair tighter but don't think I can expect to get much better than my MOA accuracy at 50yds realisticly. Not talking 1 off groups but avg.

FX  Figuring out how to use this valve removal tool from Bagnall & Kirkwood

I recently purchased a valve removal tool. I'm trying to avoid damaging anything, so I want to be crystal clear on how to use it. Is the screw on the end intended to catch on the edge of the valve seat? There's a video of someone using it, but I'm not entirely sure what they're doing. They're rotating the knurled bit, but I'm not sure to what end.

Thanks.

PCP Rifle  SOLD Benjamin Marauder 25cal Air Rifle SOLD

I'm thinning the herd so I have a Benjamin Marauder 25cal with 2 mags another impulse buy just wanted to shoot it some and I now have so it's also looking for a new home, holds air great now that I replaced the leaking oring between the gauge and air tube. It definitely shoots better than I can shoot it an it punched a ragged hole at 25 yards with JTS 25.39s it's pushing them in the 850 to 870s. Asking $285 shipped and insured...Thanks Terry
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Western Airguns  ‼️ Deal Alert ‼️ Used Western Airguns Rattler .357 for $2000 @ Baker Airguns

Great price on a used Western Rattler. It appears to be a very early model. Be sure to read the description. I'd call to get the most details or to ask questions if I were in the market. I probably won't buy it, so why not pass the deal along to someone whois looking for one? $2000 plus shipping and tax and it's yours.

Mass flow rate

Mass flow rate is the amount of a gas that passes through an orifice per unit of time. The three primary parameters that effect the mass flow rate through an orifice are velocity, density, and orifice area. Other factors include gas temperature, orifice entry and orifice exit conditions, both of which are called coefficient of discharge based on the losses around a poppet or turn in the valve... In this thread I'll briefly discuss variables and will happily answer questions if they arise.

Brief mention on how Mass flow rate not only ties into airgun physics but its history.... I used mass flow rate calculations to assist and progress the understanding of balanced valves over at the GTA years ago in the Simplified Balanced Valve thread. My understanding of this calculation helped countless people get reliably tunable balanced valves in their guns for the tuning community, however FX had this figured out, to what degree I cannot say, but they had integrated balanced valves long before the tuning community even knew they had. Since the information went public? Now countless manufacturers are adding these valves to their guns. Coincidence? Maybe..

I also used mass flow rate calculations to help myself and another understand and integrate pilot valves into airguns mechanically while making them incredibly tunable.

The mass flow rate calculations helped paint a picture that shows the nature of whats going on inside both a balanced valve, and a pilot valve in a unit of time the human mind can't quite grasp without math, microseconds.





Velocity:

Lets discuss the Velocity of the air parcel (or rather the mean velocity, as there are many molecules, all moving at different speeds).

We'll use a choked flow formula, because the pressure ratio for airguns is incredibly high, and the flow is very much choked.


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  • γ (gamma): The adiabatic index (ratio of specific heats). For air, γ ≈ 1.4.
  • T1: The absolute temperature of the air in Kelvin.
  • p1: Pressure of compressed air inside airgun *but to be exact the average pressure during the shot cycle, which depends on start pressure and plenum volume
  • p2: Ambient pressure outside determined by your elevation
  • R = Gas constant.
For those curious, the formula to determine if the flow is choked is as follows, P1/P2 > (2/(γ + 1))^((γ + 1)/(γ - 1))

Using the above data for my gun, the velocity of air is approximately 769 m/s...or 2522 fps. Changing the pressure does not increase the velocity, as the parameters that determine velocity in choked flow are properties of the gas, or in our case compressed air, and its temperature. Super heating the air or super cooling the air would have great effects, or switching to helium the gas used to propel the projectile.

The above implies my gun can shoot a projectile upwards of 2,000+ fps on compressed air given the right conditions and a light enough projectile. Some may feel the need to challenge this take, and if so, be my guest, as these velocities have already been achieved in airguns by several members of the GTA community.

As noted, the only way to manipulate velocity of the gas itself, is changing the gas to a lighter or heavier one, or changing its temperature, changing the orifice diameter doesn't change the velocity of air either, however it will greatly effect the mass flow rate. Meaning you cannot increase the velocity of air alone with different calibers or porting, only the mass flow rate (volumetric) of air.





Density:

Next up is Density, what determines density? We'll use an approximation based on ideal gas behavior, which some may disagree with, however, if you have a better method please share! Ultimately calculating the exact density isn't the purpose of this discussion, rather understanding its makeup.

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Using the following:
  • Pressure (P): 2000 psi (converted to pascal) = 13,789,520 pa *(This would be the average pressure present during the shot cycle)
  • Temperature (T): 295 K (kelvin converted from 72F)
  • Specific Gas Constant for Air (R): 287 J/(kg·K)
We'll convert pressure to pascals.

1 psi = 6894.76 Pa
P=2000 psi×6894.76 Pa/psi=13,789,520 Pa

The above formula gives us a density of 162.1 kg/m3

The few ways to manipulate density is to

A) Change pressure (or change plenum volume to change pressure drop during shot cycle)
B) Change composition of gas
C) Change temperature which also has an effect on pressure

This means that as the density increases (more pressure) the mass air flow rate will also increase, assuming the Oririce area and velocity variables are left unchanged, which ultimately means the same airgun at a higher pressure can potentially eject more air mass over the same unit of time compared to the same airgun at a lower pressure, provided you're creating more dwell to reach the plateau at the higher pressure.



Orifice area

This is the porting through your airgun. The porting is limited either by design of the gun, or its caliber. You can port larger than the caliber however gains will quickly diminish to the point where you will experience losses. When porting any airgun, one must account for the CSA (cross-sectional area) of any obstructions within the pathway, be it a poppet stem, or the projectile probe.

CSA is calculated as such.

CSA = π⋅(d/2)²

Where d is the diameter, and CSA is cross sectional area.


Lets calculate my valves throat csa, my poppet stem csa, and make sure I have enough flow for my port csa.

Valve throat: 3.1415*(.238/2)² = .04374 sqaure inches
Poppet stem: 3.1415*(.047/2)² = .00174 square inches
Valve exit port: 3.1415*(.225/2)² = .0398 square inches

Now lets subtract the poppet stem csa from the valve throat csa, and we have get .042 in². Most tuners say you want around 5-10% more flow at this location than the rest of the system, likewise with the valve entrance, however I cannot confirm nor deny, but I generally try for a bit over, and in my case, its about 5.5%. What you don't want, is a negative value which would result in not only a slight reduction due to the restricted orifice area, but also because of additional wasted space ahead of the throat which is intended for more flow than one would see with a choke at the valve seat, resulting in undesirable pressure loss.

The other conditions:

Other conditions aren't as impactful yet should be mentioned, such as how many turns, radius of turn, porting surface quality, which often do matter to the most intense of enthusiasts and tuners trying to get every last ounce of performance from their airguns, this is basically Cd, or coefficient of discharge, the efficiency of the flow rate achieved vs calculated in perfect conditions. Temperature can play a large factor however for it to have extreme effects on mass flow rate, you'd have to have extreme shifts in temperature beyond what is reasonable inside the action of an airgun, I'm sure our airguns would eject a more intense mass of air if super heated to a few million celcius opposed to our commonly comfortable range of 0-40c which we shoot at, but even then I am sure seasoned shooters notice the shift in their guns performance from winter to summer, which can partially be chalked up to this key variable that determines the mass flow rate of your airgun.


-Matt

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