Petition to Allow Laser Range Finders in Field Target Competitions

[SciueraPlumbea]

Ya but im not here to math, I just build my guns to shoot flat(why I can't shoot field target) and and they're squirrel accurate off just the approx parralax reading correlated to scope stickers.

I just have the "I don't like rules" personality.

But this is an international, organized, skill based competition.
The entire fall of society is due to putting the rules and the enforcement of them by the wayside in favor of immediate gratification and personal desires.

Taking the skills away would ruin the entire spirit of the sport.
it's math in the beginning, eventually you begin to just know distance based on size in reticle and where the parallax becomes crystal clear. I can just put something on my reticle, use my side focus wheel and have a good enough idea to score hits on game. I dont do FT.

just like AI and cellphones in school, always opting to rely on technology degrades skills and arrests development of knowledge.

 

[beerthief]

Hi everyone,

We’ve just launched a petition asking the WFTF to consider allowing the use of Laser Range Finders in Field Target competitions. This change could make the sport more accessible, inclusive, and aligned with modern shooting practices.

If you believe in making Field Target more open to newcomers, HFT shooters, and those with visual or technical challenges, please take a moment to read and sign the petition



https://chng.it/NZmNzHYWHZ


Your support can help bring positive change to our sport. Thank you!

The simplest solution i can think of and cost no money is just unlimited shot's till you hit the intended target , Everybody gets a 1st place trophy !
No winners , no losers , no hurt feelings , no tear's ,and most of all ,no whining !

 

[Troy Bakel]

any Miliradian FFP scope or SFP MRAD set to its 1:1 magnification is an analog range finder.

Height of target in inches ÷ 36 x 1000 ÷ Mil reading= range in Yards

with MOA reticle it's

target size in inches x 95.5 ÷ MOA reading= range in yards

Does not work in the field.

1. You do not know the size of the target and target size varies.

2. Accuracy of Mil or MOA readings by the shooter decreases with distance due to:

a. Non linear decrease in apparent (viewed) target size.
b. Thickness of Mil or MOA markings.
c. Scope movement, shooter's inability to hold scope still. Area of scope movement over target increases as apparent target size decreases.

 

[SciueraPlumbea]

Does not work in the field.
1. You do not know the size of the target and target size varies.

2. Accuracy of Mil or MOA readings by the shooter decreases with distance due to:
a. Non linear decrease in apparent (viewed) target size.
b. Scope movement.

you estimate based on size relative to the known value provided by the power of estimation and relative to the reticle.

Squirrel head...
Sparrow,
"kill zone"

It's worked long enough, this stuff is factored into thinking, magnification exists. I don't understand where you're coming from. It's effective.

 

[Troy Bakel]

you estimate based on size relative to the known value provided by the power of estimation and relative to the reticle.

Squirrel head...
Sparrow,
"kill zone"

It's worked long enough, this stuff is factored into thinking, magnification exists. I don't understand where you're coming from. It's effective.

Reality.

Bracketing with a scope versus range finder.

How close is your "estimation" to the accuracy of your equation?

 

[SciueraPlumbea]

Reality.

Bracketing with a scope versus range finder.

How close is your "estimation" to the accuracy of your equation?

Awful, I'll estimate a squirrel head is 1.75" and next thing you know my POI is behind me.

We're talking FT and airgun hunting ranges. it's not too hard.

When I did competitive shooting it was LR unknown distance courses. I became very well practiced at this. Getting as close as possible with the Mil reading could get me reliably within 10y at 450+. Back in the days of simple Mildot Leupold 10x40 LR/T Mk.4 being the gold standard.

edit. the scopes now with the very highly marked fine reticles up to 60x allow for a VERY PRECISE MIL reading. not so easy with a fixed 10 at 875yards. I would wager if i went back to the Long distance range local to me, Gunsite Hills. if i were to have someone set out a few targets from 350-750 using my Venom 15x or EPL4 at 24x I could Tighten up those estimation error radii

 

[Airgunoregon]

The game is the game.

The only fair way to "make room" for new comers with less skills, is to make the "Unlimited Class" an AAFTA class and squad that class all together in adjacent lanes so they don't end up helping the non range finding classes.

It would totally mess up the historic scores in comparison to new scores if the rules change so drastically.

The current rules have created parity among the current classes. Hunter class with the 16x scope limit has won overall high score as often as not.

And as said several times above, range finding with a scope has been and needs to continue to be, a big part of the game. It's not as big a factor as some think as was also said above. Wind reading is by far the largest reason for misses, second is probably not following through on your shot or unsteadiness. Range finding errors might be next, but probably Brain Farts could be the third reason on average.

One can also set up their scope as low as possible and lower the chance for range finding errors .. just sayin

 

[AirNGasman]

View attachment 571707
wondering what this KZ does

Some people are just natural trouble-makers!



.

 

[Jezter6]

The only fair way to "make room" for new comers with less skills, is to make the "Unlimited Class" an AAFTA class and squad that class all together in adjacent lanes so they don't end up helping the non range finding classes.

Its never about helping newcomers with less skills.

Unlimited gear classes only make it worse for new people that have neither skills or special gear.

 

[AirNGasman]

More than once I've petitioned the American Airgun Field Target Board Of Governors to maintain the original purpose and roots of Field Target by, among other things, 1) Requiring targets of typical airgun quarry, 2) Outlawing targets like a) People, b) school buses, c) military tanks, 3) Outlawing stabilizers with no purpose other than adding ballast weight, 4) Reducing maximum scope magnifications, 5) Requiring yardage markings on adjustable objectives be covered (black electrical tape works well), 6) Removing forced-kneeling shots and lanes.

I suspect petitioning the WFTF to allow rangefinders will be as successful as my petitions to AAFTA; which is to say NOT. Matter of fact, it occurs to me I'd have been much more successful petitioning AAFTA for rangefinders, and the OP would be more successful petitioning the WFTF for my want-list detailed above, due to the different natures of humans each organization manages.

Americans being the worlds' most prolific consumers, Capitalists and equipment freaks, I suspect it's only a matter of time before AAFTA acquiesces about rangefinders (in one way or another, like Unlimited Class). And the majority of humans elsewhere being much more Conservative in the aforementioned regards than Americans, the WFTF would likely be more amenable to my (Conservative) ideals.

.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Its never about helping newcomers with less skills.

Unlimited gear classes only make it worse for new people that have neither skills or special gear.

In some cases you are correct

But our store makes a large effort to find and set up low cost equipment for entry level competitors, and we have many total packages, (air rifle, scope, bi-pod etc), that will shoot 3/4" 10 shot groups at 50 yards, that cost under $600.

That's plenty accurate enough to do well or even win if you learn the skills. We have seen it happen, so yes there are lots of folks who have the bucks and want to spend them on the best equipment they can find or think they need, or think will get them in the winners circle without the work others have to put in.. but that doesn't leave out the new comers with a small budget that want to put in the time to learn the necessary skills.

Wayne

 

[cavedweller]

More than once I've petitioned the American Airgun Field Target Board Of Governors to maintain the original purpose and roots of Field Target by, among other things, 1) Requiring targets of typical airgun quarry, 2) Outlawing targets like a) People, b) school buses, c) military tanks, 3) Outlawing stabilizers with no purpose other than adding ballast weight, 4) Reducing maximum scope magnifications, 5) Requiring yardage markings on adjustable objectives be covered (black electrical tape works well), 6) Removing forced-kneeling shots and lanes.

I suspect petitioning the WFTF to allow rangefinders will be as successful as my petitions to AAFTA; which is to say NOT. Matter of fact, it occurs to me I'd have been much more successful petitioning AAFTA for rangefinders, and the OP would be more successful petitioning the WFTF for my want-list detailed above, due to the different natures of humans each organization manages.

Americans being the worlds' most prolific consumers, Capitlaists and equipment freaks, I suspect it's only a matter of time before AAFTA acquiesces about rangefinders (in one way or another, like Unlimited Class). And the majority of humans elsewhere being much more Conservative in the aforementioned regards than Americans, the WFTF would likely be more amenable to my (Conservative) ideals.

.

I think it's important for any organization to actually state clearly in writing what their objectives "are" and then have a program with rules and then
tools and targets which match stated objectives. I would think:

improved marksmanship and safety #1
growth of sport including not only membership but facility / venue access #2
social or community relationship building locally and globally #3

Regarding types of targets... a few years back i drove from mobile al to Phoenix AZ to buy 20 targets from Mike Smith RIP. I didn't know a thing about field target... never shot a single one before the drive. Anyhoots i brought home quite an assortment of used targets -i got what i got. some were sorta offensive (a bus) etc.. but then i got to thinking about it...
i shouldn't concern myself about whatever was around the KZ. The KZ was all that really mattered.
Then again at my first match in Baton Rouge, the Cajun Classics, it was a hoot shooting at all the crazy faceplates and as such i hit more faceplate then KZ's.
fast forward... in this day and age it's pretty hard to design a target that doesn't offend someone somehow. For that same reasoning i buy gamo faceplate replacements that are just round or square etc... But i do love a whacky target, esp at 100 yards when it falls.
But i also hate to maintain the paintjobs. The last target is my favorite !

 

[JW.]

any Miliradian FFP scope or SFP MRAD set to its 1:1 magnification is an analog range finder.

Height of target in inches ÷ 36 x 1000 ÷ Mil reading= range in Yards

with MOA reticle it's

target size in inches x 95.5 ÷ MOA reading= range in yards

How many FT matches have you shot using just the reticle to range targets?

 

[Troy Bakel]

When you range a target incorrectly you hit higher or lower of center. Round holes get smaller as you move away from center....squares do not.

Unless scheduled, I cannot set up Field Target targets on the PSA Competition Range. So I started drawing Kill Zones of different sizes on paper.

I would take a WFTF regulation KZ, place it at the regulation closest distance, take a shot and if I had a clean hit inside the KZ (didn’t shave or cut the edge) I would move it 2 yards further and shoot again.

The goal is to use the least amount of shots to move the WFTF KZ from closest distance allowed to furthest distance allowed.

For some reason I tried using a square with sides equal to the diameter of the WFTF regulation KZs and unless the wind was pushing shots, I had no problem making a clean shot at each distance.

When I hung that square KZ as a Diamond, it changed the game completely. With the sides sloping in as you move in any direction from center, clean hits on a diamond are harder to make.

 

[SciueraPlumbea]

How many FT matches have you shot using just the reticle to range targets?

None, I admitted that from the first post. But i've done it in MANY LR-UD courses. I do this everytime I fire at live prey. Finicky game doesn't always allow the time for laser ranging and dialing. I've got it in my head that a squirrel head, jaw on the crosshair to mil read at the ear at a glance .3 = 150 .4 = 125 .5=100 .6= 80 .7=65 1= ~50 1.5=30 2=25 Usually gets the job done. I don't sit there with a pen and paper. Spending most of my late teenage years and early to late 20's doing that every single weekend, that kinda became second nature. using my telescopic hi zoom ruler.

edit: I guess what I'm saying is Most people involved deep enough in the hobby to compete at hard to find niche competitions and deep enough into that scene to develop a community of friends country wide. I assume that you're practiced enough to know the size of something or at least ballpark it accurately enough to get a workable solution. You know what a minute looks like at ranges. You know what your typical Bullseye on a BR card looks relative to your Metric of choice reticle. I'm sure the Pressures of time constraints and worrying about your score adds difficulty. I'm not trying to flaunt my massive skills or imply lack of skills in anyone else, I'm sure I'd get handily destroyed by practiced FT shooters. I'm coming from the position I assume that was part of the challenge and a what would be a fundamental skill to develop as well as trigger discipline, cant discipline, Stance, Hold, breath, and optic precision.

 

[cavedweller]

I'd rather see a bump in power than range finders.

Edit. I don't shoot WTFT, so it doesn't matter much to me. The super low power turns me off, honestly.

But it sure makes us aware of the wind

 

[cavedweller]

Thats the field target conundrum right there. Field target is primarily run on dedicated equipment that borders on the esoteric.

XFT and 100y BR are thriving because the equipment is what everyone uses for plinking/hunting/etc.

We have lost more attendees to the new AG sports than old eyes, knees or backs.

If the game they play under NRL Hunter (the full size PB's, not the 22lr or AG NRL Hunter) was adapted to AG's I think it would be a big hit. It’s a bit more involved than what we do but just as challenging and would 100% have a practical application (hunting). The power level equalization factor would need to be inverted, but other than that it would be easy to adopt.

Commercially available/ Access to targets that can handle <100 fpe at 15 yards is pretty much non existent and when you do find a source it will cost you a bunch $$$

 

[cavedweller]

any Miliradian FFP scope or SFP MRAD set to its 1:1 magnification is an analog range finder.

Height of target in inches ÷ 36 x 1000 ÷ Mil reading= range in Yards

with MOA reticle it's

target size in inches x 95.5 ÷ MOA reading= range in yards

Math?

 

[cavedweller]

But this is an international, organized, skill based competition.
The entire fall of society is due to putting the rules and the enforcement of them by the wayside in favor of immediate gratification and personal desires.

Taking the skills away would ruin the entire spirit of the sport.
it's math in the beginning, eventually you begin to just know distance based on size in reticle and where the parallax becomes crystal clear. I can just put something on my reticle, use my side focus wheel and have a good enough idea to score hits on game. I dont do FT.

just like AI and cellphones in school, always opting to rely on technology degrades skills and arrests development of knowledge.

A hit isn’t always a ethical kill shot… I prefer precise

 

[cavedweller]

The simplest solution i can think of and cost no money is just unlimited shot's till you hit the intended target , Everybody gets a 1st place trophy !
No winners , no losers , no hurt feelings , no tear's ,and most of all ,no whining !

Sign me up