N/A EXPLODING PCP???

[jps2486]

The owner needs to immediately file a report with the consumer product safety commission

CPSC.gov

www.cpsc.gov

No, no, no! The last thing we need is government getting involved and making senseless regulations. Regardless of what hobby you pursue, someone is going to screw something up and hurt himself. Thankully, no one was injured here and we've all learned something.

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

2016 the Navy went to ultrasound as their inspection regimen. They have also tried Computed Tomography xray. I haven't seen anything beyond the initial RFQ for the CT scan since. My assumption is the CT scan just takes too long and the base hardware cost too much for it to be used.

But they most assuredly do not use hydro testing anymore.

It was my understanding that the Navy uses both the Model Acoustic Emission testing as well as the hydrotesting. The MAE testing is better at finding flaws in the composite material than the widely used ultrasound testing would be.

However I am not completely up to snuff on this but previous research a few years ago led me down a deep rabbit hole.

 

[jarmstrong]

he refered to it as an airtube, so I presume, it is an all metal tube vs a carbon bottle, till I get corrected by the OP

"Today at home, there was an explosion and the PCP's airtube literally split in half wide open from one end to the other with two half cylinders mangled."

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

he refered to it as an airtube, so I presume, it is an all metal tube vs a carbon bottle, till I get corrected by the OP

"Today at home, there was an explosion and the PCP's airtube literally split in half wide open from one end to the other with two half cylinders mangled."

Fantastic point!

 

[Jerry w]

I'm not scaremongering or crying wolf.

I am asking for more details - we were supposed to go to the range this week to sight in one of my PCPs, and he was going to bring this unit.

I will update more. But as I understand, it is bone stock, under 1 year old, not exceeding fill specification, and indoor at normal room temp. As to pictures or manufacturer, once posted, this information cannot be unposted. But if I am conservative, I can also post later after I double-check my info. In this day and age, where anyone can claim anything on the web and the prevailing culture can be quite acidic in crucifying the manufacturer, I would rather be cautious. The photos, to me, are stunning. But if I post the photos, the manufacturer would immediately be identified, hence my caution at this point.

He's already written the manufacturer twice and a major USA dealer once. My own opinion is that they should give him a refund AND a new gun for his troubles, but this is subjective on my part.

 

[Sergey1972]

I've often wondered about PCP air tube or bottles exploding, but I thought that I was overly paranoid, as I've never heard of this danger before.

Well, today I received pictures from a friend who purchased a new well regarded PCP. He sighted it a few weeks ago (I have to check our texts) and it was MOA at 75 yards so he was happy.

He is an experienced PCP and piston airgun owner of many years and is a mature, seasoned, and meticulous outdoorsman.

Today at home, there was an explosion and the PCP's airtube literally split in half wide open from one end to the other with two half cylinders mangled. The force was so high that the barrel bent, and the gun case was shattered along with different parts of the gun. AND some other hunting equipment nearby was also broken.

This is stunning, and I'm not sure what to think. If he were holding it, I believe that it would have taken his arm or hand out, and possibly blinded or deafened him, or worse.

Has this happened before elsewhere?? How dangerous are PCPs to such explosions?

I'm not mentioning any brands for now as I don't want to the focus to be on a particular brand, but the safety of PCP itself.

Thanks

There are other threads here covering pcp safety if you just wanted information. Without pictures and details this is fearmongering. There are plenty of people here who can double check the math once the brand and model is known. If there is a problem, we need to make ourselves safe.

 

[hgg2k]

I should clarify that my interest is to understand the inherent safety of PCPs at this point. Hence, I mentioned the highest pressure I know of which is Huben, for the sake of discussion. I did not say that this is a Huben.

You might not have time to understand the inherent safety of PCPs if this happens again...

Why are you protecting the manufacturer?
Other people might be injured badly.
Not very responsible!

 

[Ratzy]

Ill repeat my post

Imagine misusing something and then demanding a refund on the product that ended up being the victim of misuse?

Sure, how can I say it was misuse? exactly .... how can you say its manufacturer defect? exactly.

Why not wait for all the info before posting at all? what did you expect to happen?

Those 5k pressure have titanium tubes and there's 1 or two that I know about. That would be the Huben K1.

It has been more than 50 years since I had a materials science course but the description of the event leaves very few possibilities.

Aluminum will shatter under high stress load. Which is what was described. But to get a large breech as described requires some additional factors. Given the size of the stock airgun bottle is generally 0.5L or less. One of the issues is the virtually immediate depressurization below the event pressure. So to get the described full tank explosive decompression indicates a full length fault and the rupture being linear across the length of the fault.

The combination of factors to create that immediacy AND be mounted on a gun, improbable at best.

Generally in a corrosion scenario the fault is localized and would fail in a small rupture degassing the bottle below event pressure.

High energy impact and extreme over pressure are possible to get the aluminum to shatter. The latter being highly unlikely given the various points of failure that are much weaker than 1/4 inch aluminum when the bottle is mounted on the gun.

 

[Pea-shooter O.G.]

Maybe, just maybe, Ultralight is a SPRING GUN MANUFACTURER, and he's trying to get everyone to sell off their time bomb PCPs and buy more springers!

 

[JimD]

I will be interested to hear more as we all are. I remember the Edgun incident and I believe Ed thought moisture in the airtube was a contributing or perhaps main causal factor. But that is from memory. I would think that would take time so on a relatively new gun, even if it got a little moisture in it I wouldn't think that would be a big risk. As far as how it would fracture I would expect a stress point to initiate a tear. As soon as air begins to escape stress will be greatly reduced so fragmentation would be surprising. The larger the opening the quicker the stress reduction. I'm not saying I know anything about what happened, just commenting from an engineering standpoint.

I do not have a "bottle gun" but I may buy one. One reason would be what I believe is the greater safety of the means of containing the air. The liner is still aluminum but the stress is restrained by carbon fiber which is unable to seal in the air. So a liner failure results in air rushing through the carbon fiber and the carbon fiber holds the aluminum in about the same location. The tests to destruction I have seen are consistent with this failure mode - and it took a lot of damage to the carbon fiber to get it to fail.

The air cylinder on my Caiman indicates it was tested at 450 bar. I don't know if that sort of testing or design factor of safety is used by other brands but it doesn't seem unreasonable. With that much margin in the design, rupture as described seems like it would take unusual circumstances. A simple overfill should not cause something like the description.

 

[Gerry52]

Until FACTS are presented this is B.S.! There are over half a million members here with (as far as I know) NO OTHER occurrences of this happening except where an air reservoir was modified. The OP's reluctance to cite FACTS is very telling! THE SKY IS FALLING!

 

[Ratzy]

Now I'm not here to poke holes at anyone, but this statement in bold above does open the door for many to speculate ???

There are very few PCP's that fill to 5000 psi for one. 300 bar is the most common upper limit which closer is to 4350 psi
Was said PCP rifle a 300 bar fill gun, perhaps a 250 bar or most common 200 bar or # 3000 psi fill ? * as statement said "At that particular moment"

It only takes a single over pressure cycle to do permanent damage to an air tank or cylinder. This could happen very easily as likely most of us have done so at one time or another .. I'm being brutally honest here !!!
Also some foreign manufactures have questionable QC on the materials used in manfacturing, lack testing guidelines or requirements in meeting the country of export destination.

Questions questions questions

Questionable QC?
That would be actively investigated in the destination country because there would be failures of a common type from a single source.

Mass production limits the failure modes, especially in something simple like an aluminum tank. A substandard material fault would be expressed across a large number of bottles. A manufacturing fault, such as a bad press, is possible but again would be expressed across a large number of bottles.

Generally one of a kind faults in a simple manufacturing process are caused by human error.

 

[Motorhead]

Questionable QC?
That would be actively investigated in the destination country because there would be failures of a common type from a single source.

Mass production limits the failure modes, especially in something simple like an aluminum tank. A substandard material fault would be expressed across a large number of bottles. A manufacturing fault, such as a bad press, is possible but again would be expressed across a large number of bottles.

Generally one of a kind faults in a simple manufacturing process are caused by human error.

As one who has likely worked on more Airguns than most, units from around the globe etc ....
I've witnessed first hand some VERY very very shotty workmanship, piss poor materials quality, horrid machining / surface finishes that could very well lead to a failure that would not necessarily repeat enough to be tracked.
yes QC as in a Lack of ... QUALITY CONTROL

 

[Ratzy]

It was my understanding that the Navy uses both the Model Acoustic Emission testing as well as the hydrotesting. The MAE testing is better at finding flaws in the composite material than the widely used ultrasound testing would be.

However I am not completely up to snuff on this but previous research a few years ago led me down a deep rabbit hole.

Yeah, I read the RFQ for the CT scan scanning some years ago and realized it was going nowhere. But they did include the evolution of their test and inspection process. Which was a pretty interesting read. They did a big study using accelerated life cycle to determine hydro testing shortened the life of the tanks as compared to ultrasound. Ultrasound was also able to detect incipient faults that hydro testing cannot detect. Hydro is go/nogo, if the tank blows it fails.

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

Yeah, I read the RFQ for the CT scan scanning some years ago and realized it was going nowhere. But they did include the evolution of their test and inspection process. Which was a pretty interesting read. They did a big study using accelerated life cycle to determine hydro testing shortened the life of the tanks as compared to ultrasound. Ultrasound was also able to detect incipient faults that hydro testing cannot detect. Hydro is go/nogo, if the tank blows it fails.

Ya they are still using Hydrotesting as of 2024

https://cnreurafcent.cnic.navy.mil/Portals/78/NSA_Naples/Documents/NSA%20Naples%20Instructions/NAVSUPPACTNAPLESINST%205100_8%20-%20RESPIRATORY%20PROTECTION%20PROGRAM.pdf?ver=MCfkHj8vX5dJuiEyGqq6vQ%3D%3D

Bottom of page 32.

They also do not ultrasound, MAE testing is different than ultrasound.

 

[bchannell]

I dunno, I'm not saying this is BS, but I wouldn't post an incident report without documentation. It just doesn't feel right. Way too many variables here and without documenting it with pictures and specifics, it's just a "story". I do understand the need to get all information correct and complete, but I wouldn't have posted until I had that info. What good does it do to "randomize" the discussion of pcp airgun hpa cylinder explosions?

Not to be rude, but until this is documented... to me it's just hearsay and of little or no value. I would also say, if you know 'for sure' the manufacturer, then I would think that you would want to let the forum know for safety sake, so caution can be exercised until the root cause is determined.

It sure gets everyone's attention when you post "EXPLODING PCP???" and then back the title up with ... nothing?

 

[Sleestak]

Well if it's well regarded that rules out Hatsan



LOL

 

[6gun]

It would seem that with the number of o-rings and other plastic type parts in the air path (poppets/valves) that those would have failed and allowed the pressure to leak out prior to any violent explosion, unless there was some damage of defect of the air cylinder itself! I know a lot of what is being posted is speculation, which is why it's important for the facts to be shared. I hope OP see the urgency and will share the pictures and details on the make/model/year of the airgun involved so the rest of us can check our like airguns and take measures to ensure our safety is not in jeopardy!

My thoughts exactly that I didn't elaborate on. The only pressure vessel EXPLOSIONS I've ever seen in 30 years of high pressure stuff from paintball to pcp guns had petroleum contamination, high pressure oxygen, damaged or "repaired" threads. The heli cool bottle was 1 incident caught in camera. Oxygen in a pcp was photo evidence from long ago.

The oil and dieseling explosions from well meaning new owners oiling their foster check valve is the rest of them, completely. Unless youre shooting a pressure vessel with a pb rifle.

 

[6gun]

Well if it's well regarded that rules out Hatsan



LOL

And aea.

I don't want to come off as agressive or assigning /denying blame. It sounds like this exploded like Elmer fudds gun, but sometimes an energetic depressurization is written as explosion. We just don't have enough info, and I can't blame op for not posting info if litigation is on the horizon. I just wouldn't have posted about it in general till it was done, just to cya.

I'm the guy that's put 2k in crosman stamped tubes and side tapped 1377 valves to make them pcp , runs out of date carbon bottle and scbas, but im also the guy that won't let hydrocarbons get anywhere near interiors of pressure vessels. I fear a well meaning owner could've overlooked something unfortunately. No loss of life fingers or eyesight is a blessing here.

 

[DonEnzone]

This entire thread is useless unless we get actual details on the brand and model. There is absolutely no reason to keep that a secret.

If a Tesla goes up in flames because of a faulty battery it's more than reasonable to report it. You're not gonna get sued for reporting on an incident, whatever the root cause may be. Even if it's user error, at least other people will know what to look out for.

Either give us the proper info or don't create the thread.