Bullpups, do they make us better overall shooters?

This was part of my "accuracy thread" but it went a little off topic so, I decided to give it its own thread.

This is something I've been thinking about for quite a while. A “bullpup” weapon, by definition, has a design where the action is located behind the trigger group. The action is built into the buttstock, thus significantly reducing the overall length of the weapon while maintaining the same full-length barrel of a conventional rifle or shotgun. 
Yeah, ok. That's a great definition. Lets look at it from some different point of views...
From the hunters perspective, the bullpup lends itself to ease of mobility while retaining power when compared to a traditional rifle.
Lets look at it from the long range shooter point of view. The bullpup lends itself to instability and mechanical disadvantages when compared to a traditional rifle. Huh?
Why then, would competitive shooters use them in a competition that classifies as "long range" for air rifles? Could it be that those competitive shooters have become so comfortable with their rifle that it is now the most accurate for them regardless of what tradition says?
Why am I beating up on the bullpups? That's not my intention, in fact it's quite the opposite.
As we collectively use bullpups in a way that they are not intended to be used, does it stand to reason that we are becoming better shooters overall because of the bullpups? Would that bullpup shooter have an advantage over a traditional style rifle shooter because he's made a design work in a way it was not intended to in order to be competitive in an event where the design of traditional style rifles gives them an advantage?
If we could take that bullpup stock off a shooters rifle (that primarily shoots bullpups) and replace it with a traditional stock. Then get that same shooter, from an alternative universe where bullpups don't exist and get them side by side. Which one would be the better, more accurate, shooter?
Are bullpups making us all better, more skilled, and therefore more accurate shooters? 
What do you guys think? 
Tom
 
I think shooting my Vulcan has taught me to be more precise in my approach to technique. In other words as you described, the bullpups are more unstable (aiming). I really like the bullpups for alot of reasons, but they do require more attention to the details in my opinion. So to answer your question? I think bullpups force us to develop are skills to become more accurate shooters. So YES, I think your right. I know I will catch grief for this comparison, but it is kinda like when you learned how to drive a car. If you learned on a manual transmission, you could drive an automatic, but if you learned on an automatic tranny, you don't just jump in and drive away in a manual tranny until you get over the learning curve....?
 
honestly, there's no secret to shooting. just go thru the fundamentals: positioning, grip, trigger control, follow thru, breathing, etc. judging wind and trajectory are a whole different story (this takes skills).

because bullpups have a mechanical disadvantage at shooting long range; you have to pay attention more to the fundamentals to get your shot downrange accurately. so i guess shooting a bullpup in turns make you a better shooter. hmmm interesting. 

theres also a lot of varibles to consider. like what shooting disciplines we're talking about. shooter's preferences in weapon and gear. how the weapon and gear fits the shooter. and how well they know how their stuff behaves. what make those olympic shooters so good? they put billions of rounds on target, they begin to "feel" comfortable with their weapon and understand the mechanics how operate their equipment efficiently and effectively. 

anyways just my 2 cents. hope it made sense. 
john
 
What is this competition you speak of that where bullpups are common? In 10 years I have seen one bullpup used in FT one time. I've never seen a bullpup in sanctioned benchrest.. 
It looks like most bullpups are sold for "tacticool" reason ( admitadly SOME hunters do have a genuine need for one tho ). It's not as if the idea is new in airguns, Ole Tony B tried one years ago in competition , very briefly.

Now there is one way they , might, make you a better shot in that you must try to adapt to it so much. This should make your adaptive skill much better.
I would prefer a rifle that fit's and is balanced for a natural hold.

John

 
"spysir"What is this competition you speak of that where bullpups are common? In 10 years I have seen one bullpup used in FT one time. I've never seen a bullpup in sanctioned benchrest.. 
I've seen them used at EBR every year since its second (or third?) running. I think Ted might have won or placed with his Edgun one of those years. Last year, there was a line of Impacts from the FX guys and some Bobcats as well as at least one Pulsar. I, personally, qualified for the 100yd with my wildcat (but, that's another story :) ) and also used my Verminator for 25yd. So, they are out there competing and sometimes winning or placing. Well, I guess the Verminator technically doesn't count as a bullpup but, it sure does have the feel of one to me, anyway. 
I agree with you on the FT side. I haven't personally seen any instances of a Bullpup in a FT. Lets say it did happen, hypothetically. Would you agree, that shooter would have had to overcome the negative aspects of the bullpup design? If so, wouldn't learning to overcome those subtle disadvantages make the shooter an overall better shooter? 
Tom
 
I think my bullpups have made me a better shooter. It's a learning curve when you first shoot them, but I believe my Cricket pup will hang with my Cricket rifles when both are shot from bipod and rear bag. You just have to be a little more conscious of any slight movement and have excellent follow through and they can do anything the rifles can do.
They sure are easier to store in their little hard cases, and much easier to grab when I head out the door and that sure increases the fun factor ;-)

Fuss
 
Not speaking of target shooting. I know nothing.

I think there is definitely a divide here betwixt pellet guns and powder burners. I cannot imagine using a bullpup powder burner to hunt .... anything. But then I've never tried. BUT I only use my Wildcat ( well there was that one time on a squirrel using a 340 N Tec ) for pesting . ( some call it hunting ). I do not see me using a 'long' gun shooting squirrels or pigeons or doves or much else. The .25 Wildcat is so perfect and easy and accurate ... why go anywhere else? But I'm a relative noob with limited experience with airguns.

Now if I was to move up to coyotes I'd go to .30 cal and a bottle gun. But that ain't happening. I'll stick with powder for that. I don't even want to shoot a coon with a pellet gun. I'm not that good a shot offhand and even with my .22 mag I make shots where the animal takes too long to expire.
 
For some reason I have found it opposite as to harder/easier I shoot a lot off hand as I do a lot of stalk hunting. The ease of on target from my normal carry position of a rifle for me at least makes the bullpup a very viable choice. Since I will run into times when hunting pigs that I am waiting for a pig to move and give me a clear shot I may have to target hold for an extended period of time, the short center of gravity let's me do this without overly taxing my arm so I can get a cleaner bracketing even after a long target hold.
That being said when I want to do some good long shots I love shooting my Texan it's heavy platform reduces body effects and makes for a smoother cleaner trigger pull.
A tool for every job.....
Besides it gives me a reason to have TWO air guns not just one!
 
I used a Cricket 177 bullpup for the 2016 FT season except for one event the PA Cup Grand Prix in Ohio. At every FT match I was the only person using a PCP bullpup. There were 118 competitors at the 2016 Nationals I was the only PCP pup in any class, same for the Crosman's NY GP there were 100 competitors at I was the only PCP pup there.

For Hunter class using a bullpup is a disadvantage. It is shorter and lighter than a standard rifle, similar to a pistol. If you every tried shooting a pistol off sticks you know every movement is exaggerated. A bullpup off sticks isn't as exaggerated as a pistol but is not nearly as stable as a rifle. For the offhand lanes I found the Cricket to be too light, that is personal thing and some shooters will find a lighter gun good for offhand. 90% of the shooting in HFT is off sticks.

This season I will be using a Cricket 177 rifle and expect to have better results in 2017.


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Above is the Cricket with an Sightron scope designed for FT.
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Above I came in 3rd using a Cricket and a Hawke scope at the Massachusetts GP.
 
"Sam63"I used a Cricket 177 bullpup for the 2016 FT season except for one event the PA Cup Grand Prix in Ohio. At every FT match I was the only person using a PCP bullpup. There were 118 competitors at the 2016 Nationals I was the only PCP pup in any class, same for the Crosman's NY GP there were 100 competitors at I was the only PCP pup there.

For Hunter class using a bullpup is a disadvantage. It is shorter and lighter than a standard rifle, similar to a pistol. If you every tried shooting a pistol off sticks you know every movement is exaggerated. A bullpup off sticks isn't as exaggerated as a pistol but is not nearly as stable as a rifle. For the offhand lanes I found the Cricket to be too light, that is personal thing and some shooters will find a lighter gun good for offhand. 90% of the shooting in HFT is off sticks.

This season I will be using a Cricket 177 rifle and expect to have better results in 2017.

I came in 3rd using a Cricket and a Hawke scope at the Massachusetts GP.
Sam, 3rd place at a Grand Prix is top notch in my book! That's awesome.
I've only made it to the 80% mark twice and that was with my Thomas. My range finding skills suck and my off hand shooting is even worse ;-) LOL
Best of luck with your Cricket rifle!
Fuss
 
Sam, I shoot unlimited and use 30 power and still can't range worth a patooty past 45 yds? LOL
I've only made it to the 50 club once! That's 50 out of 60

I'm about 50 to 25 % on the forced lanes
I fare better on the kneeling than the standing though.

Our club usually just post each match a month in advance. Not really a yearly schedule for us. We have a match this weekend and I really want to go, but work is so hectic and I don't feel like doing squat when I get home. It depends on whether I can get my butt out there and practice my holdovers in the next few days? And if it doesn't rain?
I'll get more into it if I can ever retire and have more free time.

This is me with my .177 Cricket rifle ;-) LOL


Peace and trigger stick grease
Fuss
 
Interesting read. I have always thought bullpups were ugly, that is spelled with a U. However, I am now considering getting one, specifically the Wildcat. I have read a lot of posts and looked at a number of videos and I come to the conclusion that they can be as accurate as any rifle, they are easier to carry in the field, and once you appreciate the performance the looks don't seem that important. I'll have to give one a try.
 
Good thread Tom. My personal feelings is that the configuration of the gun, standard, bullpup or somewhere in-between is not the deciding factor. Assuming all guns were equally accurate to begin with and wind was not a factor. I think it comes down to two things. What you are most comfortable with, and the amount you shoot. I base that on my own experience shooting my boss 30, impact 25 and wildcat 22 when practicing at 75 -100 yards. The boss has always been the standard and benchmark to match and I have been trying to match and exceed that level with the impact. Getting close, but not quite there yet. At the end of a shooting session I always grab my favorite, go to 22 wildcat that I shoot thousands of rounds through for some fun shooting. Surprisingly it will match and sometimes exceed the boss and impact depending on wind conditions. I believe that we as human beings have a herd mentality. What ever gun wins the contest is the one we will all gravitate towards. You can see that in past EBR's. When the boss won, the following year their numbers increased dramatically. The same thing is happening with the impact. I would predict the crown will be next. I believe that practice is the key. Remember when we were kids and shooting a daisy model 25, or what ever BB gun you grew up with. We hardly ever cleaned them and kept the little corner store in business buying those little cardboard tubes of BB. A starling setting on the wire at 50 yards stood a good chance of going down.