What is your standard for accuracy?

To bad you don't live closer to me.
I have a backyard range out to 160 yards and it's set up for fun!
Paintballs at 50 yards, a steel plate setup just to hear that ZING sound from the ricochet, Bells to ring, Stainless steel pans of different sizes at different ranges, knock downs, spinners, the required empty (Sometimes full) beer cans, paper targets, starlings, and old muffins tins!
Sometimes we tape exploding things on targets. Then there's Peeps, eggs that have gone bad, old saw blades, and anything else that seems like a good target at the moment!
I've even setup my body armour at different ranges just for the heck of it!
I love audio reactive targets! At my beginner level using open sights, bargain-priced rifle, no bench etc etc, I can still have lots of fun with ordinary steel food cans set so that the end is the circular target. I just bought supermarket-branded (cheap) 14.5-ounce cans of broth, opened one end with an old-fashioned triangular can punch, drained and washed it, and then punched another triangular hole on the other end opposite to the first hole. After I run a cord through the holes, I’ll have a reusable hanging steel target for low-power short-distance plinking. Stick a paster dot on it as desired.

When using a slingshot, I used to leave any steel balls remaining in shot soda cans as noise reactors for following shots. But this might not be a great idea for the air rifle unless I move the target farther away from both me and the side of the garage. Distances practiced at so far are only 10 meters and 50 feet.
 
You REALLY wanna mess with them near the river? Set out cotton candy! They will try to wash it and then spend time looking at where they dipped it in the water! Cause it will desolve and as they are wondering what the heck happened? BOOM!
Better yet, sweet fizzy tablets that turn to soda in the water! Set up video to record their reactions.
 
There are some incredible marksman here (y) My current standards with a Crosman 2289 at 7 yds 1/4", 15 yds dime, 25 yds 1.5 yds and at 50 yds 2.5". I'm sure the 2289 is capable of doing better in the hands of some here:unsure:.
I lent mine to my grandparents; grandma says grandpa had been having a blast🤗 lent him a few so he could plink away🤪🤙
 
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Well clearly there is the accuracy of the gun, while trying to minimize the impact of the shooter (benchrested, perfect conditions, all the time in the world for a good shot, and eliminating ones that are known to be bad due to the shooter like with bad trigger pulls), and then there is the accuracy of the gun with the shooter in field or hunting conditions (imperfect rest, constraints on the shot, everything counts etc.). I like to know the accuracy of the gun first, and that is what the rest of this speaks to.

OK – let me go ahead and proclaim this up front: I am a nerd that likes to geek out on data. 😉

With that said, I’ll now say that I HATE group size as a the key measurable when talking about accuracy of guns, and here is why – it “throws away” most of the useful information! How? Because we take a certain number of shots (typically 5, but 10 is better – but people don’t like 10 because the groups are bigger . . . ) all of which carry usable information about how far off the POA they fall, but we throw most of it away keeping just the max spread across the group. What a waste . . . .

So when I want to really understand how a gun shoots, I set up and wait to run a true test of the gun, shot in a way to minimize me and conditions as an influence. To do this I need to wait for shooting conditions that are dead still – or at least as dead still as we can get (there is no such thing as no air movement, but we can get close, typically in the morning on a very calm day). When I have those conditions, I shoot:
  • Far enough for the gun that there will be a spread in the results – 50 yards is the shortest that I like to do this, as even with very good guns we tend not to get many shots at the exact same POI
  • Take 100 shots at 100 individual bulls
  • Use target paper flat against smoot duct seal in the target trap (this gives holes that look like wadcutters at target paper for best measurement)
  • With every shot taken, with the POA trying to be perfectly on the center dot of the bull, seek no called fliers (if there is one pulled, it is dropped from the test and replaced). This is about the gun, not the shooter
  • Measure every POI against POA to the closest tenth of a millimeter in the X and Y directions
  • Enter all data into Excel for analysis, consisting of:
    • Determine average offset needed to have the average on the POA (great for really nailing down scope settings
    • Plot each individual shot without “losing” data in the “large hole” view that is created with groups
    • Generate statistical models that allow for determining random (and thus average) groups of various size
Anyways, when you do this, you TRULY understand what a gun can do. Then you can add your own variation on top of that as you work on your own contribution to the system variation.

The plot below shows the kind of results this can yield. This particular gun puts roughly 50% of all shots inside MOA, and while that does not sound great, do know that mathematically this results in an average of 5 shot groups being under 1 MOA (statistically, the smallest 50 yard 5 shot group should be about 0.1” ctc , and the largest at just over an inch, but the average would be 0.58” at 50 yards – or 0.76” for ten shot groups).

As you can guess, group size is “perfectly acceptable” once one understands what drives it and what it means – but it is a lousy first order metric. Even on a gun shooting as well as this one was, with an average group size under 1 MOA, it sshould be expected to have ~25% of the shots land outside 1 MOA from the POA at 50 yards – if everything else was perfect (which it almost never is in real life) . . .

One thing that I have learned from this type of work and analysis is that most of what people think of as “extreme accuracy” is nowhere near as accurate as they think it is . . . .



View attachment 349381
OK, you just broke my brain! I thought I was being technical and methodical but you have taken this to another level many strata above. I figured if I could just get consistent small groups, no matter where they land on paper (my hammer spring and regulator adjustments change POI), I could simply adjust my scope to put these small groups on the bull. I guess this is why I never understood the whole accuracy versus precision thing. Many(especially me)use the term accuracy, but I figured if I could just get precision then by adjusting the scope I would have both. That's why I always just concerned myself with group CTC. Obviously there's a lot more to think about.

accuracy & precision.png
 
This was my first attempt at 100 yards. The wind was coming from the right 5-10 mph and gusts from the rear also. The only group I actually waited for the wind gusts to ease up is the center. The other groups are one 5 shot group and 3 three shot groups. I was expecting 6" groups with the wind but I was happy smaller with groups. I was wanting to try some heavier 21g pellets and some slugs but didn't want to fight the increasing wind for small groups. I can't wait to try it again when this weather gets better. I have hope I will get some moa groups.

I used 18g AA branded pellets , for the target . The target has one inch squares.

View attachment 349619

View attachment 349620View attachment 349621View attachment 349622View attachment 349623
Yeah, wind is NOT an air gunners friend. I'm going to assume a .22?
,
 
I like shooting in wind sometimes. I'm pretty good at reading the wind.
Drive 6 hours to a fun shoot once and it was really windy! From right to left at about 15 - 20 MPH.
There was a bell out at around 75 yards. Many took shots but no DING!
I had a Hatsan BT65 .177 shooting NSA slugs. Took me about 5 shots but.... DING! 1st hit on that bell that day!
Then to show it was not just luck? Hit it 5 more times in a row! I told the other shooters how much they needed to pull right and that bell was rung all day long after that!
 
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OK, you just broke my brain! I thought I was being technical and methodical but you have taken this to another level many strata above. I figured if I could just get consistent small groups, no matter where they land on paper (my hammer spring and regulator adjustments change POI), I could simply adjust my scope to put these small groups on the bull. I guess this is why I never understood the whole accuracy versus precision thing. Many(especially me)use the term accuracy, but I figured if I could just get precision then by adjusting the scope I would have both. That's why I always just concerned myself with group CTC. Obviously there's a lot more to think about.

View attachment 349778

In the psychmetric/measurement world your ideas are referencing the research areas of reliability (precision) and validity (accuracy). The research indicates you can't have acceptable accuracy without acceptable precision. Precision is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition of accuracy.
 
If I can hit my 35 yard target hand drawn circle the size of a nickel, shooting from a cheap outdoor metal table with gusty winds varying from 5 to 25 mph from one side or the other, I am good. Still sighting in my AF Tex SS .457 and .25 M3 which recently suffered a mag jam yet to be cleared. Seriously though, I am blind in my right eye and losing the sight in my left. As long as I can see enough to shoot, I am good to go.
 
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I think that accuracy is important. But so is skill.

Accuracy, to me, is related to how well your weapon system (gun and pellet) puts a round into a defined area around the point of aim, in ideal conditions (as if there is such a thing).

Skill relates to how well you can wield that same weapon system, in other than ideal conditions, into that same defined area.

Let's suppose your weapon system can reliably put rounds within 1 inch groups at 100 yards, on the bench. That's 1 MOA accuracy.

Now lets suppose that you shoot that same weapon system offhand with 2 inch groups at 100 yards, in a 10 mph wind coming towards you at a 45 degree angle. I would say you have 1 MOA skill.

That's pretty simplistic, I know, but I see that as a starting point.
 
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Well clearly there is the accuracy of the gun, while trying to minimize the impact of the shooter (benchrested, perfect conditions, all the time in the world for a good shot, and eliminating ones that are known to be bad due to the shooter like with bad trigger pulls), and then there is the accuracy of the gun with the shooter in field or hunting conditions (imperfect rest, constraints on the shot, everything counts etc.). I like to know the accuracy of the gun first, and that is what the rest of this speaks to.

OK – let me go ahead and proclaim this up front: I am a nerd that likes to geek out on data. 😉

With that said, I’ll now say that I HATE group size as a the key measurable when talking about accuracy of guns, and here is why – it “throws away” most of the useful information! How? Because we take a certain number of shots (typically 5, but 10 is better – but people don’t like 10 because the groups are bigger . . . ) all of which carry usable information about how far off the POA they fall, but we throw most of it away keeping just the max spread across the group. What a waste . . . .

So when I want to really understand how a gun shoots, I set up and wait to run a true test of the gun, shot in a way to minimize me and conditions as an influence. To do this I need to wait for shooting conditions that are dead still – or at least as dead still as we can get (there is no such thing as no air movement, but we can get close, typically in the morning on a very calm day). When I have those conditions, I shoot:
  • Far enough for the gun that there will be a spread in the results – 50 yards is the shortest that I like to do this, as even with very good guns we tend not to get many shots at the exact same POI
  • Take 100 shots at 100 individual bulls
  • Use target paper flat against smoot duct seal in the target trap (this gives holes that look like wadcutters at target paper for best measurement)
  • With every shot taken, with the POA trying to be perfectly on the center dot of the bull, seek no called fliers (if there is one pulled, it is dropped from the test and replaced). This is about the gun, not the shooter
  • Measure every POI against POA to the closest tenth of a millimeter in the X and Y directions
  • Enter all data into Excel for analysis, consisting of:
    • Determine average offset needed to have the average on the POA (great for really nailing down scope settings
    • Plot each individual shot without “losing” data in the “large hole” view that is created with groups
    • Generate statistical models that allow for determining random (and thus average) groups of various size
Anyways, when you do this, you TRULY understand what a gun can do. Then you can add your own variation on top of that as you work on your own contribution to the system variation.

The plot below shows the kind of results this can yield. This particular gun puts roughly 50% of all shots inside MOA, and while that does not sound great, do know that mathematically this results in an average of 5 shot groups being under 1 MOA (statistically, the smallest 50 yard 5 shot group should be about 0.1” ctc , and the largest at just over an inch, but the average would be 0.58” at 50 yards – or 0.76” for ten shot groups).

As you can guess, group size is “perfectly acceptable” once one understands what drives it and what it means – but it is a lousy first order metric. Even on a gun shooting as well as this one was, with an average group size under 1 MOA, it sshould be expected to have ~25% of the shots land outside 1 MOA from the POA at 50 yards – if everything else was perfect (which it almost never is in real life) . . .

One thing that I have learned from this type of work and analysis is that most of what people think of as “extreme accuracy” is nowhere near as accurate as they think it is . . . .



View attachment 349381
I do the same kinda thing. IMHO, groups are good for testing for consistency but poor as far as checking accuracy.
 
Groups are ok but don't tell you how accurate you are. I view accuracy as how close to your aim point you hit. A super group of stacked pellets doesn't mean much if it's off target.

To see how well/poorly I'm shooting I measure how close to my POA I am hitting. Since I use a one inch kill-zone as my target I need to be accurate within +/- one-half inch at that particular range.

For practice I use a 5x5 array of small bullseyes, fire one shot at each, measure the delta between POA and POI, add the deltas and divide by 25 to give me the average discrepancy between where I was aiming and where I hit. This gives me a reference number to use to see how I'm doing.

I consider my maximum effective range (with that weapon, under those conditions) to be the distance I can keep all 10 shots inside a one inch circle.
 
Groups are ok but don't tell you how accurate you are. I view accuracy as how close to your aim point you hit. A super group of stacked pellets doesn't mean much if it's off target.

To see how well/poorly I'm shooting I measure how close to my POA I am hitting. Since I use a one inch kill-zone as my target I need to be accurate within +/- one-half inch at that particular range.

For practice I use a 5x5 array of small bullseyes, fire one shot at each, measure the delta between POA and POI, add the deltas and divide by 25 to give me the average discrepancy between where I was aiming and where I hit. This gives me a reference number to use to see how I'm doing.

I consider my maximum effective range (with that weapon, under those conditions) to be the distance I can keep all 10 shots inside a one inch circle.
Silly question, as I constantly ask this to myself all the time when I read these statements and wondering if im doing something wrong or am i just reading what people say incorrectly. If you have a what i consider a really tight group let's say it is sub moa like 1/2 inch at 100 yards. But all are 2 inches to the right of center POA. Doesn't this mean my scope just needs a simple adjustment to center my POA with the center of my POI? Because to me it means I've got to where I want and just need to make some clicks on the scope and need to get my dope card for the conditions.

???



Allen
 
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Silly question, as I constantly ask this to myself all the time when I read these statements and wondering if im doing something wrong or am i just reading what people say incorrectly. If you have a what i consider a really tight group let's say it is sub moa like 1/2 inch at 100 yards. But all are 2 inches to the right of center POA. Doesn't this mean my scope just needs a simple adjustment to center my POA with the center of my POI? Because to me it means I've got to where I want and just need to make some clicks on the scope and need to get my dope card for the conditions.

???



Allen
I think you are spot on. In fact, I often will shoot groups as a quick check to make sure things are OK, or for a quick test of different ammo, and I'll give the scope several clicks to move it off target on purpose, in order to preserve the POA for the group - or I'll shoot groups a distance longer than the scopes zero knowing that POI wont match POA, but that I can adjust the scope if needed.
 
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Silly question, as I constantly ask this to myself all the time when I read these statements and wondering if im doing something wrong or am i just reading what people say incorrectly. If you have a what i consider a really tight group let's say it is sub moa like 1/2 inch at 100 yards. But all are 2 inches to the right of center POA. Doesn't this mean my scope just needs a simple adjustment to center my POA with the center of my POI? Because to me it means I've got to where I want and just need to make some clicks on the scope and need to get my dope card for the conditions.

???



Allen

Agreed, if you're shooting from a bench you can reset the zero on the scope if the group is off. That's what "sighting in" is :)

Different than target shooting or tuning, in a pesting/hunting situation it's hitting with the first shot that's important to me.

Good groups (good tune, the right projectile, proper form and technique) are a perquisites to accuracy but having a good group doesn't automatically mean I'm are going to be accurate enough to be able to hit my target. I measure my shots (POA to POI) when I'm practicing to see how accurate I am at that distance.

Cheers!
 
Whoa,what a heavy "thread?" I forgot what the OP,s point was. Reasonable expectations of accuracy I think? It comes down to physics,science,health,current conditions,mood,you name it. Can I get at least 2 special gold stars for not jumping on the idiot at work who said he could take a between the eyes shot at 2000yds.lol
 
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