In defense of the “snobs”…

[Glenroiland]

I dunno... This group is five rounds at nine yards with a $140 QB77 with a ten dollar flea-market Gamo scope and the Crosman pellets I got from WalMart. So I'm thinking that a "budget gun" isn't all that bad a thing. My Beeman .22 QB78 shoots almost as well with a $5 scope.

Others should post their budget groups so that we can see the down-range reality.

Ride on,

J~

I would never question that an inexpensive gun is capable of fantastic groups.



The range that I take small game at is from 30 to 55 yards plus or minus. For me, if I aim at a living animal, I must be able to hit kill zone sized targets at that range all day long and twice on Sundays. I don't care what the cost of the rifle is, I must trust it implicitly. 



I have one cheap xisico that I trust like that. The rest of my affordable alternatives won't do. I love shooting them, but they have proven inconsistent enough at my hunting/pesting ranges that I won't use them. I love them and would never part with them.



I've never been a snob, ever, on this or any forum period. I love the less expensive alternatives, which often get people started in the field. They also often deter people from the field. After a few cheap springers I had all but given up until I shot an hw97. When I saw what it could do, I was brought back into the fold. Additionally, I still pick up affordable as is obvious from my more recent xisico. And that gun has paid off in dividends.



You probably decrease your odds of a lemon as you go up in price, and hopefully increase customer support as well. You probably increase your odds of a lemon as you decrease in price. Simple as that.



Still I'll never avoid a cheap springer or a good deal....

Enjoy what you got, and don't spend more than you have...

 

[tjmac]

When pistol field target (PFT) started up here in Canada, lots of folks bought a $70 Crosman 2240 and then invested $300-400 into them to turn them into contenders. I saw a Walther LP200 for sale for $500 and snapped it up. We are regulated to under 500 fps in PFT up here. I set the reg to shoot 8.44 Exacts at about 485 fps and that was it. The handling, accuracy and trigger were absolutely perfect as it came. So the Crosman 2240 guys and I had the same money invested.

I had been through the same things that Bryan had gone through and was determined not to repeat. Did the guys with the 2240s love them, absolutely. They spent the money slowly, adding new items to improve the feel, aesthetics and accuracy of the gun and had fun doing so. That was their journey; some regretted it and some were thankful for the journey and still have the guns.

These points of view should not be in conflict. So choose your own journey and enjoy it. 

Tim

 

[Moog]

tjmac, I agree with you about the 2240. Adding the modifications was half the fun. Mine will shoot as close as I can hold.

 

[BryanH]

The 2240 and 1322 are special little guns. If you want a pistol for a backyard bunny buster, don’t want a PCP, and you can deal with the range limitation these guns are numero uno. If you’re on a sub-$100 budget, still numero uno. If you want to build a one off custom pistol (or carbine) yourself with limited experience and tools it’s numero uno. And the sky is the limit.

You can flat top it and call it good or literally replace every single part with top quality machined in USA of American stainless parts and have Steve Corcoran put a stock on it far nicer than even the sweetest walnut tx200.


I don’t know if another air pistol with the factory and aftermarket parts and support as good as these.

 

[BryanH]

Now I want to build one

 

[BryanH]

Definitely would not ever sell one like that either, gotta be pretty hard up to let it go lol.

 

[Moe M.]

I dunno... This group is five rounds at nine yards with a $140 QB77 with a ten dollar flea-market Gamo scope and the Crosman pellets I got from WalMart. So I'm thinking that a "budget gun" isn't all that bad a thing. My Beeman .22 QB78 shoots almost as well with a $5 scope.

Others should post their budget groups so that we can see the down-range reality.

Ride on,

J~

Well I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I do get aggravated with people who push their opinions on others, I have a couple of high end air rifles and I will agree that there's a big difference in the handling and performance of a high end German or English built air rifle that you can't get in one made in China or Turkey, on the flip side of that coin allot of folks have to deal with Champane taste and a beer bottle wallet, When I decided I could no longer deal with $90.00 a brick .22RF or a buck a shot .38 specials, 9mm, or .45ACP ammo, I turned to the next best thing, air power, $600.00 pellet guns were not in my wheelhouse, so I bought a $230.00 GAMO Swarm, it treated me so well that I purchased five more low end beak barrel rifles, and yup, every one of them had an issue or three, mostly bad triggers, junk scopes, and break in periods, but I learned allot from doing trigger jobs, replacing scopes, and testing pellets, maybe I was just lucky but I never got a lemon, never had to send one back, today every one of them and I'm now up to about a dozen give or take a couple are still giving me great service, I also have an R-7 and an R-9, both fantastic guns, while I really enjoy my HW built Beeman's, I really get off on taking what some snobs consider a junk Chinese or Turkish built rifle and doing a trigger job to and finding the right scope and pellet combo for them and make them shine.

As far as others giving you grief or talking smack in your direction it could be that you are a bit overly passionate about your high end guns and pushing your point a little heavy, have you ever met a smoker who has recently quit but feels like he/she has to save every smoker they meet, ever meet a chevy owner that just has to convince a Ford owner thaat they need to get rid of their favorite pickup because it ain't a GM product, those folks are usually boring as well as irritating, I watched a video last week between Tyler Patner of Venturi Arms and Tom Gaylord where the topic of discussion was "Are Spring Powered Guns Dead", Tom was put in the position of having to defend Springers while Tylor spent the bulk of the discussion bashing all air guns that weren't PCP's, to the point of suggesting that anyone that doesn't own a PCP rifle has to be retarded, needless to say I'm still pissed at him over that.

My point being if you like something then enjoy the hell out of it, talk about even when ever someone asks for your opinion or your advice, but don't try to make converts and for sure never be rude or insulting to any one that's not ready to hear your preaching about it. 

Just saying.

At what point was I rude or proselytizing to you, or anyone? To keep it real here you’re the one calling out and calling names.

And obviously you have done almost the exact same thing as I have, and a similar experience that you just posted.

Just keep in mind you might get half what you paid for the cheap ones. Or you could have bought them used and bid low.


I’ve killed piles of animals with cheap guns, and can make a good recommendation for one on a budget.

Maybe you should have read the thread, lol. Have a good week.

 

[rj222]

It’s killing me so I gotta get this off my chest. Lately there have been a few people throwing muck on us for pushing the more spendy springers on new guys. We have a very good reason to recommend these rifles- they are worth it. Allow me to explain.

When I first got bit by the airgun bug a little over 10 years ago I ran through cheap guns faster than you could blink. I was convinced you could do no better than a Stoeger X10 and for about a hundred bucks, why would you even try? Ran through several Stoeger guns, including the X3 and X5, and the X20S. De-burred and lube tuned them all, with Maccari springs and seals. Also several others, Crosman and Gamo mostly. Then I caught the Magnum-Itis.

Going through the magnum breakbarrel phase was a lot of fun. Had a few low end magnum guns, Walther (Hatsan) Talon Mag .25, Benjamin Trail XL, Ruger Air Mag, etc. had a lot of fun with those too.

Eventually stepped into the PCP world, I learned it wasn’t for me after three different guns never tickled my fancy.

The I got my first frauleign. RWS34. Now I am shooting goldfish crackers with 100 % hits at 15-16 yards and open sight with a factory gun, unmodified. Right out of the box, no break in just a few adjustments to the sights. Didn’t have to learn the creep of the trigger or any of that mess, very nice trigger. Dropped in a PG2 kit and it was on like Donkey Kong. From there I moved on to the Beeman R9 and never looked back.

So why am I telling you all this? Here is why…

I have bought many low end breakbarrel rifles. Built a spring compressor to do something I could have achieved with just a long Irwin quick grip bar clamp. And spent money on tools and parts, including trigger upgrades, and lube tuned most of them.


Of all of these guns I have invested all this money and time in, I have sold all but two of them at about a 50 percent loss of not worse. That is a couple thousand dollars down the drain. Anyway, those two guns are the RWS 34 and the Beeman R9. The RWS 34, I paid $160 for it new from Cabelas. I have passed it down to my youngest boy. That gun would fetch me $200 today easily. The other is a Beeman R9. I bought it less than 2 years ago brand new, and I could easily sell it on the used market for the same price I paid.

Not one of my previous guns could touch either of the latter in fit/finish or build quality, nor performance. Especially the R9. Sure, the spring noise is there. As much twang as any mid powered springer I have ever shot. But that thing slings pellets right where I want them to go, almost like psychokinesis. I’ve never had a gun that I could shoot off-hand as well as this gun, not even a powder burner. You must experience it to believe it.

So I do not have a problem with a cheap gun. I’ve killed many animals with a $80 breakbarrel, they work just fine. So get you a Crosman Optimus or Gamo Varmint, or etc. it’s worth the price of admission. But please take this opportunity to learn from me and many others who came before you- don’t just keep wasting money on more cheap guns. Buy one or two cheap guns to get started, then save your pennies to buy something quality. You won’t regret it.

And be wary of anyone hawking cheap guns, that might claim they are equivalent to a fine European springer. They’re lying to you.

Just my two cents. Thanks for looking

Respectfully,

Bryan

SORRY ....I AM THE SNOB, TWICE.....TWO PISTONS AND RECOILESS
NOT AVAILABLE AT WALLYWORLD. QUALITY SPRINGERS & PCPs ARE WORTH THE INVESTMENT

 

[Bigragu]

The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have.

Well said

 

[Archdesigner03]

The 2240 and 1322 are special little guns.

You can flat top it and call it good or literally replace every single part with top quality machined in USA of American stainless parts and have Steve Corcoran put a stock on it far nicer than even the sweetest walnut tx200.

Modding a 1322 is fun but can get expensive real quick haha. I went down that rabbit hole once and wouldn't do it again. With the money I put into my 1322, I could get a nice entry pcp that will out perform my modded 1322 in power and accuracy.

 

[davelarson]

Hopefully the new members here won’t get turned off by the few who always pick a fight.
There’s so much good information and help here. And really good folks too.
Once in awhile there’s that person who chimes in with negative comments and can’t seem to stop.
I just treat them like a mustard burp in the wind…unpleasant for a second, then gone lol.

 

[SpiralGroove]

It’s killing me so I gotta get this off my chest. Lately there have been a few people throwing muck on us for pushing the more spendy springers on new guys. We have a very good reason to recommend these rifles- they are worth it. Allow me to explain.

When I first got bit by the airgun bug a little over 10 years ago I ran through cheap guns faster than you could blink. I was convinced you could do no better than a Stoeger X10 and for about a hundred bucks, why would you even try? Ran through several Stoeger guns, including the X3 and X5, and the X20S. De-burred and lube tuned them all, with Maccari springs and seals. Also several others, Crosman and Gamo mostly. Then I caught the Magnum-Itis.

Going through the magnum breakbarrel phase was a lot of fun. Had a few low end magnum guns, Walther (Hatsan) Talon Mag .25, Benjamin Trail XL, Ruger Air Mag, etc. had a lot of fun with those too.

Eventually stepped into the PCP world, I learned it wasn’t for me after three different guns never tickled my fancy.

The I got my first frauleign. RWS34. Now I am shooting goldfish crackers with 100 % hits at 15-16 yards and open sight with a factory gun, unmodified. Right out of the box, no break in just a few adjustments to the sights. Didn’t have to learn the creep of the trigger or any of that mess, very nice trigger. Dropped in a PG2 kit and it was on like Donkey Kong. From there I moved on to the Beeman R9 and never looked back.

So why am I telling you all this? Here is why…

I have bought many low end breakbarrel rifles. Built a spring compressor to do something I could have achieved with just a long Irwin quick grip bar clamp. And spent money on tools and parts, including trigger upgrades, and lube tuned most of them.


Of all of these guns I have invested all this money and time in, I have sold all but two of them at about a 50 percent loss of not worse. That is a couple thousand dollars down the drain. Anyway, those two guns are the RWS 34 and the Beeman R9. The RWS 34, I paid $160 for it new from Cabelas. I have passed it down to my youngest boy. That gun would fetch me $200 today easily. The other is a Beeman R9. I bought it less than 2 years ago brand new, and I could easily sell it on the used market for the same price I paid.

Not one of my previous guns could touch either of the latter in fit/finish or build quality, nor performance. Especially the R9. Sure, the spring noise is there. As much twang as any mid powered springer I have ever shot. But that thing slings pellets right where I want them to go, almost like psychokinesis. I’ve never had a gun that I could shoot off-hand as well as this gun, not even a powder burner. You must experience it to believe it.

So I do not have a problem with a cheap gun. I’ve killed many animals with a $80 breakbarrel, they work just fine. So get you a Crosman Optimus or Gamo Varmint, or etc. it’s worth the price of admission. But please take this opportunity to learn from me and many others who came before you- don’t just keep wasting money on more cheap guns. Buy one or two cheap guns to get started, then save your pennies to buy something quality. You won’t regret it.

And be wary of anyone hawking cheap guns, that might claim they are equivalent to a fine European springer. They’re lying to you.

Just my two cents. Thanks for looking

Respectfully,

Bryan

+1 Bryan,
Been through the same process and decided Weihrauch worked best for me.
Infrequent shooters or folks with average expectations can stick with Benjamin, Hatsan and Gamo.

 

[snakedriver]

I hear you. Coming from my end, it’s personal but for good reason. Not trying to ruffle feathers but anyone comes looking for an argument will find one.

Im just a average blue collar dude, I drive a truck for a living, I have to feed many mouths. I try to make every dollar count. I have wasted a lot of money I shouldn’t have over the years, chasing exaggerated claims, and spent a lot of time and effort trying to achieve those claims. Most of them may only come close after many tins to break them in, plus a trigger job or new trigger altogether.

Its been a valuable experience and I like to think I have developed “the touch” over the years, by which I mean I can shoot a springer as well as I can shoot anything else of similar quality. But it’s a lesson I could have learned from 2 or 3 cheap guns if I had just saved my money to invest in something much nicer.

And if you cant wrap your head around what a difference it makes in the field, I have two words for you- “bad investment”.

Pay for quality and in just a few years it will bring the same price used as you paid for it new. Buy cheap and the gun may continue to depreciate even if you find a deal on a used gun.

I don’t have a problem with the cheap guns, they have their place. But it turns my stomach sour when someone claims they have a cheap gun equal to a German springer of reknown quality. Especially when there is an obvious conflict of interest.

Your point is well made and well taken. I can't tell you how much money spent and aggravation had trying to start from the bottom and working my way up the springer quality ladder. I feel your point is: Do it right the first time and you won't have the frustration of doing it again and again and again. A good quality used German or Brit springer will always hold it's value if it is cared for.
If you just want something to keep the coons out of the trash and that's it, then any Gamo will do, and you can just toss it in the trash and buy another when the warranty hassles, repair costs and/or shipping is more than the cost of a new one. But, if you are going to attempt to derive pleasure from target shooting or hunting, then probably best to buy the best quality German or Brit springer new or used that you can afford. And enjoy from day one while avoiding all the hassles that come with inferior quality.
IMHO.
.