In defense of the “snobs”…

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BryanH

BryanH

Member
Feb 24, 2018
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N.C., United States
It’s killing me so I gotta get this off my chest. Lately there have been a few people throwing muck on us for pushing the more spendy springers on new guys. We have a very good reason to recommend these rifles- they are worth it. Allow me to explain.

When I first got bit by the airgun bug a little over 10 years ago I ran through cheap guns faster than you could blink. I was convinced you could do no better than a Stoeger X10 and for about a hundred bucks, why would you even try? Ran through several Stoeger guns, including the X3 and X5, and the X20S. De-burred and lube tuned them all, with Maccari springs and seals. Also several others, Crosman and Gamo mostly. Then I caught the Magnum-Itis.

Going through the magnum breakbarrel phase was a lot of fun. Had a few low end magnum guns, Walther (Hatsan) Talon Mag .25, Benjamin Trail XL, Ruger Air Mag, etc. had a lot of fun with those too.

Eventually stepped into the PCP world, I learned it wasn’t for me after three different guns never tickled my fancy.

The I got my first frauleign. RWS34. Now I am shooting goldfish crackers with 100 % hits at 15-16 yards and open sight with a factory gun, unmodified. Right out of the box, no break in just a few adjustments to the sights. Didn’t have to learn the creep of the trigger or any of that mess, very nice trigger. Dropped in a PG2 kit and it was on like Donkey Kong. From there I moved on to the Beeman R9 and never looked back.

So why am I telling you all this? Here is why…

I have bought many low end breakbarrel rifles. Built a spring compressor to do something I could have achieved with just a long Irwin quick grip bar clamp. And spent money on tools and parts, including trigger upgrades, and lube tuned most of them.


Of all of these guns I have invested all this money and time in, I have sold all but two of them at about a 50 percent loss of not worse. That is a couple thousand dollars down the drain. Anyway, those two guns are the RWS 34 and the Beeman R9. The RWS 34, I paid $160 for it new from Cabelas. I have passed it down to my youngest boy. That gun would fetch me $200 today easily. The other is a Beeman R9. I bought it less than 2 years ago brand new, and I could easily sell it on the used market for the same price I paid. 

Not one of my previous guns could touch either of the latter in fit/finish or build quality, nor performance. Especially the R9. Sure, the spring noise is there. As much twang as any mid powered springer I have ever shot. But that thing slings pellets right where I want them to go, almost like psychokinesis. I’ve never had a gun that I could shoot off-hand as well as this gun, not even a powder burner. You must experience it to believe it.

So I do not have a problem with a cheap gun. I’ve killed many animals with a $80 breakbarrel, they work just fine. So get you a Crosman Optimus or Gamo Varmint, or etc. it’s worth the price of admission. But please take this opportunity to learn from me and many others who came before you- don’t just keep wasting money on more cheap guns. Buy one or two cheap guns to get started, then save your pennies to buy something quality. You won’t regret it.

And be wary of anyone hawking cheap guns, that might claim they are equivalent to a fine European springer. They’re lying to you.

Just my two cents. Thanks for looking

Respectfully,

Bryan :)
 
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I'm an advocate for cheap springers but I always tell people that my advice is to buy very cheap springers like cheapest available, from a box store so they can return them without shipping cost if a seal is bad. Or they should buy a high end diana, hw or air arms. My theory is that many people decide that springers just are not what they need and upgrade to pcp. Some even go the co2 route. In my opinion you don't get enough value out of a 175 dollar gun to make a difference from a 100 dollar gun. For that matter very few 250 dollar guns are much better. However once you get to that 300 and up range you start getting real quality and I can see why you feel like people should buy once cry once. I actually have tuned dozens of cheap springers and I have sold them all and plan on buying an hw 55 but I still feel like it's better for someone to buy what they can afford and start shooting if they can't get a top end springer right away. It's always better to buy quality if you can but I know alot of people who shoot Walmart specials very well and it's all they ever owned. I don't know if I'm really in disagreement with you or not. Just saying I find myself desiring a high end and still recommending whatever you can afford. 
 
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It’s killing me so I gotta get this off my chest. Lately there have been a few people throwing muck on us for pushing the more spendy springers on new guys. We have a very good reason to recommend these rifles- they are worth it. Allow me to explain.

When I first got bit by the airgun bug a little over 10 years ago I ran through cheap guns faster than you could blink. I was convinced you could do no better than a Stoeger X10 and for about a hundred bucks, why would you even try? Ran through several Stoeger guns, including the X3 and X5, and the X20S. De-burred and lube tuned them all, with Maccari springs and seals. Also several others, Crosman and Gamo mostly. Then I caught the Magnum-Itis.

Going through the magnum breakbarrel phase was a lot of fun. Had a few low end magnum guns, Walther (Hatsan) Talon Mag .25, Benjamin Trail XL, Ruger Air Mag, etc. had a lot of fun with those too.

Eventually stepped into the PCP world, I learned it wasn’t for me after three different guns never tickled my fancy.

The I got my first frauleign. RWS34. Now I am shooting goldfish crackers with 100 % hits at 15-16 yards and open sight with a factory gun, unmodified. Right out of the box, no break in just a few adjustments to the sights. Didn’t have to learn the creep of the trigger or any of that mess, very nice trigger. Dropped in a PG2 kit and it was on like Donkey Kong. From there I moved on to the Beeman R9 and never looked back.

So why am I telling you all this? Here is why…

I have bought many low end breakbarrel rifles. Built a spring compressor to do something I could have achieved with just a long Irwin quick grip bar clamp. And spent money on tools and parts, including trigger upgrades, and lube tuned most of them.


Of all of these guns I have invested all this money and time in, I have sold all but two of them at about a 50 percent loss of not worse. That is a couple thousand dollars down the drain. Anyway, those two guns are the RWS 34 and the Beeman R9. The RWS 34, I paid $160 for it new from Cabelas. I have passed it down to my youngest boy. That gun would fetch me $200 today easily. The other is a Beeman R9. I bought it less than 2 years ago brand new, and I could easily sell it on the used market for the same price I paid. 

Not one of my previous guns could touch either of the latter in fit/finish or build quality, nor performance. Especially the R9. Sure, the spring noise is there. As much twang as any mid powered springer I have ever shot. But that thing slings pellets right where I want them to go, almost like psychokinesis. I’ve never had a gun that I could shoot off-hand as well as this gun, not even a powder burner. You must experience it to believe it.

So I do not have a problem with a cheap gun. I’ve killed many animals with a $80 breakbarrel, they work just fine. So get you a Crosman Optimus or Gamo Varmint, or etc. it’s worth the price of admission. But please take this opportunity to learn from me and many others who came before you- don’t just keep wasting money on more cheap guns. Buy one or two cheap guns to get started, then save your pennies to buy something quality. You won’t regret it.

And be wary of anyone hawking cheap guns, that might claim they are equivalent to a fine European springer. They’re lying to you.

Just my two cents. Thanks for looking

Respectfully,

Bryan :)
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Very well said Bryan!

I was tempted to chime in on a recent anti-snob rant, but refrained from doing so based on my suspicion that the post was click bait.

Thanks

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The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have. 


 
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Agreed. The best value/investment is a German/British or equivalent springer.
I remember back in the early 80’s when I was a young husband/father and trying to remodel an old garage into a home for my new family. Beautiful country land but a true fixer upper. I wanted a pellet rifle to play with but did not want to deprive my family from having a respectable home as soon as possible. Didn’t want to be selfish. Got a Sheridan by spraying a finish on a custom made bed for a gun shop owner. No money out of my pocket. Felt good about it. Few years later when appropriate, I got a new Beeman R1.
I try to stay as close to the question being asked. I don’t know his/her circumstances. Maybe just a gift for a younger. Maybe something to leave in cabin. Maybe a truck gun. Who knows? Very good advice to be careful and not get to invested in the cheap ones. That will most likely be regrettable. 
 
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The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have. 

Click to expand...

I think we all operate from our own personal experiences and perspectives. I wish that in the early stages of my air gun journey I had sought and received advice before wasting my money on cheap, big box store springers etc. 

I would not have found it unhelpful if someone had told me to avoid this Benjie Trail XL and this Gamo Whisper. Then again, they do make nice door stops.😉


 
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The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have. 

Click to expand...


It’s happened more than once and it’s not about you or even that thread. It happens all the time, and there are members (not naming names) hawking cheap guns and making exaggerated claims due to a conflict of interest.

Also I never would have experienced the difference myself without many many unsolicited recommendations.



Thanks for looking.
 
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The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have. 

Click to expand...

I think we all operate from our own personal experiences and perspectives. I wish that in the early stages of my air gun journey I had sought and received advice before wasting my money on cheap, big box store springers etc. 

I would not have found it unhelpful if someone had told me to avoid this Benjie Trail XL and this Gamo Whisper. Then again, they do make nice door stops.😉

Click to expand...

No offense intended but it seems you missed the whole point of what I posted...lol. Short version of what I tried to say is that for whatever reason an OP has, he wants that less expensive gun, whether it's just because he wants one or can't afford to spend double, spend double, spend double. Would be more helpful to that poster to give him solid advice on the guns he asked about. 
 
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The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have. 

Click to expand...

I think we all operate from our own personal experiences and perspectives. I wish that in the early stages of my air gun journey I had sought and received advice before wasting my money on cheap, big box store springers etc. 

I would not have found it unhelpful if someone had told me to avoid this Benjie Trail XL and this Gamo Whisper. Then again, they do make nice door stops.
1f609.svg


Click to expand...

No offense intended but it seems you missed the whole point of what I posted...lol. Short version of what I tried to say is that for whatever reason an OP has, he wants that less expensive gun, whether it's just because he wants one or can't afford to spend double, spend double, spend double. Would be more helpful to that poster to give him solid advice on the guns he asked about.
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1. Personally, I do make a recommendation for a cheap rifle that will work, where it is appropriate.

2. I see your point and you’ve made your point well enough in other threads where appropriate, please quit fighting for the “ last word”

3. Please don’t jack my thread. I have my own point to make and it’s important to me for new airgun owners to understand it.



No offense intended, it seems you missed the point of what I posted
 
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Excellent post Bryan. I’ve had Walmart springers as a teenager and had a lot of fun with them but didn’t have the experience to know a quality springer from a “it gets the job done” springer. 20 years later I got into pcps then stumbled upon airgun forums. Every now and then I would peep what the traditional airgun guys were talking about. After reading many threads about fellas enjoying their high quality springers I decided to trade one of my pcps for a springer. Ended up getting a Diana 48. First thing I noticed was how beautiful the bluing was. Second was the phenomenal trigger. Perhaps not as good as a rekord but a million times better than a Walmart springer. Learned the artillery hold and was able to drop rabbits at 50 yards just like my pcps. I was so impressed with the Diana 48 I went and got a Diana 54. Suffice to say, I shoot the 54 as much or more than my favorite pcps. 
 
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Different people have different tastes. (Any cannibal can tell you that.)

It sucks that there's so much hostility being displayed here. It makes me and others less enamored of this board.

Be well,

J~

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I hear you. Coming from my end, it’s personal but for good reason. Not trying to ruffle feathers but anyone comes looking for an argument will find one.

Im just a average blue collar dude, I drive a truck for a living, I have to feed many mouths. I try to make every dollar count. I have wasted a lot of money I shouldn’t have over the years, chasing exaggerated claims, and spent a lot of time and effort trying to achieve those claims. Most of them may only come close after many tins to break them in, plus a trigger job or new trigger altogether.

Its been a valuable experience and I like to think I have developed “the touch” over the years, by which I mean I can shoot a springer as well as I can shoot anything else of similar quality. But it’s a lesson I could have learned from 2 or 3 cheap guns if I had just saved my money to invest in something much nicer.

And if you cant wrap your head around what a difference it makes in the field, I have two words for you- “bad investment”.

Pay for quality and in just a few years it will bring the same price used as you paid for it new. Buy cheap and the gun may continue to depreciate even if you find a deal on a used gun.

I don’t have a problem with the cheap guns, they have their place. But it turns my stomach sour when someone claims they have a cheap gun equal to a German springer of reknown quality. Especially when there is an obvious conflict of interest.
 
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@bryanH I have no problem with speaking your mind even if it comes off brash. A few members can attest to that. But what I have learned is: it is far better to put that energy into replying to those who posted something of value rather than writing lengthy responses to defend your point. Most times it falls on deaf *ears. So it’s better to engage with those who actually appreciate what you had to post buddy
 
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@bryanH I have no problem with speaking your mind even if it comes off brash. A few members can attest to that. But what I have learned is: it is far better to put that energy into replying to those who posted something of value rather than writing lengthy responses to defend your point. Most times it falls on deaf hears. So it’s better to engage with those who actually appreciate what you had to post buddy
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That’s why I started my own thread, friend. Seems there are plenty of members that appreciate it too. Have a good weekend.
 
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The whole point of those of us who, as you call it, "threw muck" was because an OP started a thread, spelled out everything they're looking for and asked for thoughts and opinions on the guns they listed. I don't expect a poster to spell out every last reason why for now, he's after that less expensive rifle, because it's none of my business. Random lame guesses? Family, bills, those unexpected expenses that come up and wipe out money they may have been saving, a job that while they wish it paid more doesn't, so they could afford that more expensive rifle they've read all about but right now can't afford to go out and buy.

So they surf, read, research, pick a couple that look like decent rifles they can afford right now to have something. They come here, make a post and spell out what they can afford right now and ask for fellow shooters knowledge and experience to help them not waste the little bit of money they can afford to spend. It doesn't help them any when half or better of the responses to their post tell them "save up more and buy this one or that one". Just gets them discouraged that right now, that gun you mentioned and they'd really love to own is out of reach for now.

I get recommending them and why. I own 6 HW/Beeman/Diana rifles and will happily recommend them all day long to someone who asks about them. What I won't do is recommend one of them when an OP asks about something less expensive that I've owned or still do own.THAT's the rifle I'll post about. It's what an OP wants to know and why they posted before they spend the little bit of money they do have. 

Click to expand...

I think we all operate from our own personal experiences and perspectives. I wish that in the early stages of my air gun journey I had sought and received advice before wasting my money on cheap, big box store springers etc. 

I would not have found it unhelpful if someone had told me to avoid this Benjie Trail XL and this Gamo Whisper. Then again, they do make nice door stops.
1f609.svg


Click to expand...

Thank you my friend 
 
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