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Field Target is an arms race.

What bling? I brought up statistics and mentioned two people who use them in the shooting industry (there are many, many more), the statistics apply regardless of who is doing the calculations. Everyone has an agenda, my comment was about statistics in response to a comment about shooting enough groups, not specifically Hornady or Litz.

You have made it specific to those people and their agendas...why, what is your agenda? And why do you think your agenda is valid if theirs is not? Sounds like YOU have a lot to lose here with all this bluster about agendas... My response was about statistics and now your spouting off about me hiding my head in the sand...? This is an airgun forum dude, time and place. Stop projecting.

Statistics are statistics, if its shooting or fabricated precision items, volleyball or what-have-you. Litz and Hornady are not making up what counts as a statistically significant number for a proper sample size (to sell bullets or books as you claim), statistics/math created that number (and likely created it before Litz was even born).

Do you have issues with statistics or Hornady/Litz? It sounds a lot like the later and not at all part of the discussion...the discussion about what Mike had said about shooting the proper number of targets to understand how well you and the rifle are performing.

Statistics.
Extended strings of fire are a test of the shooter not the rifle. Ok I do have bias based on many years in competitive shooting. That are shooters and there are staticisns. Very seldom do they cross. B L is an exception but also a bullet guy, so there is always that. But trying do say Long strings of shots are the only thing that tells you the rifle is competitive/ accurate is BS. Plus pushing the idea its all about the rifle in a competitive environment is really misleading. But it's what numbers guys do, being competitive, not so often. Have a nice summer and enjoy the heat, snow is coming.
 
Extended strings of fire are a test of the shooter not the rifle. Ok I do have bias based on many years in competitive shooting. That are shooters and there are staticisns. Very seldom do they cross. B L is an exception but also a bullet guy, so there is always that. But trying do say Long strings of shots are the only thing that tells you the rifle is competitive/ accurate is BS. Plus pushing the idea its all about the rifle in a competitive environment is really misleading. But it's what numbers guys do, being competitive, not so often. Have a nice summer and enjoy the heat, snow is coming.
I guess it comes down to the want to get better once you are already competitive. I use the math And other things) to do just this and it works. My FT performances over the last 13 years prove this out, how have you done in FT, any Nationals Championships, Grand Prix Championships??

You state:
But trying do say Long strings of shots are the only thing that tells you the rifle is competitive/ accurate is BS.

I wrote this:
I think to get a statistically significant group you need to shoot a minimum of 32 shots, something like that. I tend to shoot a lot of pellets as my testing 'groups', I figure I need around 60 shots without a 'flyer', because there are no real fliers, just bad pellets, barrels and shooters and a match is around 60 shots...
"I think..." that's about as far from "only" as you can get...

I didn't say anything definitively about shooting larger rather than smaller strings of shots, nor did I say it was the "only" thing (your agenda is twisting my words around).

If your tuned rifle is shooting 3" benched indoor groups at 55 yards string after string (and you know you can shoot better than that) there isn't anything you as a shooter can do to make it better (there are people who think they can but they are idiots). If you used that same rifle and shot a three shot group that measured 3/4" it could look like it is a lot more accurate than it really is and that three shot group is misleading you 100%.

If i'm shooting a 60 shot match a 32 shot group is not 'extended', a 70 shot group would be 'extended', again you're not even sticking with the actual conversation in order to advance your agenda. This is far worse than anything I have seen from the bullet guys as far as misrepresenting information goes...
 
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So on one hand 3 inch groups string after string. Next line one 3/4 inch group. So if you cherry pick that group your a dreamer. So if you shoot 3/4 inch, 3shot groups indoors string after string, day after day is that not relevant ? I don't shoot field target I am a bench shooter. No manic to extended groups except it will separate a good shooter from a poorer shooter . Orvreverse it, a good shooter shooting 2 different rifles. It does not require 50 shot groups to find which is the better one

If you have a rifle that shoots 3/4 inch 5shot groups as Ann average and you shoot a 50 shot 3/4 inch group I am impressed with you as a shooter. That is hard to do. But I can shoot say 5 of the 3/4 in groups in a row, do it agsin tomorrow and feel the rifle is capable . Do say you can't know without extended groyps I belive is incorrect. How do center fire shooter shoot aggs in good conditions ourdoors around .150? They certianly fire no extended groups.
Your the guy pushing an agenda.
 
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In a match Barrels can drift, regs can chill, scopes can temp shift.

50 shot group will show it, 3 or 5 shot groupings will not. FT does not allow unlimited sighters...
If the target does NOT fall and you see where shot went ... There's your sighter :LOL:
 
As one who competes in FT with a .20 cal, that leaves a single pellet being the JSB exact 13.73g, so making sure each and every pellet at least has a round skirt profile is done before any big GP event.
Thank goodness the QC on this pellet has been excellent over many years !!! Having a stash of over 40 tins of 500 makes sure if QC of current production falters I'm not effected :love:
@Motorhead - so am i cutting myself short shooting my .20 using H&N 11.43's? I have the JSB 13.73 on hand but never loaded one :cool:
 
Just in wind bucking and BC value :unsure:
o_O
Guess i may have to spend some more time piddling = to create = TWO more dope charts.
one for the TM1000 HFT pistol
and
one for the TMX1000 EFT pistol
terrible luck... darn... shucks... i'll have to force myself to shoot more airguns this weekend. ;)
 
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What?

You are the one misrepresenting my words, I clearly called it out and you ignored it.

Post like a man not like some kind of passive aggressive twat who needs to lie to make a stupid unrelated point.

Or come out to a FT match and get smoked by someone using the math.
Dont make me pull over this car!
 
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o_O
Guess i may have to spend some more time piddling = to create = TWO more dope charts.
one for the TM1000 HFT pistol
and
one for the TMX1000 EFT pistol
terrible luck... darn... shucks... i'll have to force myself to shoot more airguns this weekend. ;)
Honestly ... just for BC value alone and the fact they shoot so damn well would be shooting the JSB 13.73 in Both pistols !!
 
Yep I said it, and not for the first time.

Some sure seem to get heated up about that statement. Others are pragmatic enough to accept reality.

When guys are running "bb guns" that cost north of $8-10k, there's not much of an argument against it being an arms race.

When I say "arms race" I'm talking about the perpetual creep that results in ever bigger side wheels, more expensive scopes and guns, more complicated bipods, and generally more gadgetry for the classes where that's allowed, etc.

The arms race is a result of a combination of factors. First of those is that in any competition that is similarly equipment-dependent, you'll see the same thing. Competitors will spend big to acquire what they feel is the most competitive equipment. Another is the demographic....field target competitors are primarily a collection of well-to-do geezers, and many of those are retired, with the time and money to be silly about how they spend that time and money. Another is psychology...if I just buy THAT gun or THAT scope then I'll be at the top in future matches. In that sense, the arms race is as much a personal battle as it is a side-quest competition with the rest of the field. Furthermore, and another part of the psychology, is that it's simply fun to try out new guns and scopes. And who's going to buy a lower quality gun or scope than what they already have? So of course that feeds into the process of continually spending more and more and the average price of a rig in any given ft competition creeping up and up and up over the years. In that sense, some of the arms race is the over-used adage of, "you get what you pay for."

All of that is fine and dandy, and it's simply the reality of the field target game.

The negative aspect of the arms race is those rare times when a newcomer is at their first match and we have to tell them the price of the borrowed rig they're fondling. It's hard for them to envision themselves being part of the collection of field target competitors since they haven't mentally worked their way up to the great financial heights incrementally like most of us have. I say that from personal experience when I was new, and from the exact same facial expression I see when I introduce someone to field target.

As for the inevitable, "it's the indian, not the arrow" straw man logic rebuttals that are sure to come.....There is very certainly a price threshold that must be crossed to get into "competitive" territory. Yeah yeah, "so and so won with an entry level _______________ back in 20XX." Those cases are rare, and speak much to the skill of that individual competitor. In the main example I see used, that guy is now shooting a $3-4K scope/gun combo, NOT the entry level rig that he did well with that year. For most of us mere mortals, quality equipment ($$$) must be invested in if a guy has any intentions of being competitive, then of course comes practice to complete the rest of the winning equation. Hence my earlier statement about how equipment-dependent field target is.

And there you have the arms race.

(And with that, let the online battle commence).
Where I shoot and compete, some of the top shooters shoot Daystate Reveres, Daystate Air Ranger 15 years old, used RAWs, and yes there are some high dollar rigs. But off hand shooting doesn't come with dollars, and if shooting Field Target is only about winning, then I believe people are in it for the wrong reason. Most of the hunter class piston shooters have TX200s and even at the WFTF Championships at Phoenix Airguns Rio Salado in November of 2024 there were plenty of sub $2000.00 shooters. At Airgunners of AZ Tuesday AM Field Target shoots, the odd man out is the over $2000.00 right shooter. Benchrest to me is a $ and tech race, not Field Target. Start shooting Field Target Pistol and see if a Crosman 1721 doesn't take home the bacon. Add more off hand shots.
 
Ok, Let's assume that it is an arms race and that is a problem standing in front of expanding the Filed Target Game.

What if there was a new class, (AAFTA approved or not), that was "Free Style" with any air rifle under 20fpe and MSRP of total equipment under $1,000. And to support the vendors and tuners among us, we have two classes, "Out of the Box" no reworking at all except cleaning the barrel, and a class for improvements under $500. This will of course be hard to "Police" and be mostly up to the shooters to "do the right thing". A tuning invoice with the changes might be required. This would encourage the tuners out there to do their best for the fair AND the lowest price possible.... And encourage the manufactures and vendors to offer great "Out of the Box" air rifles and scopes.

What do you think?
Wayne
 
Is there any real evidence that FT is dwindling because it's too expensive?

In the 12 years I've been around it I've never heard of anyone that left because it was too costly.

I would imagine a new budget based division would have the potential to be as popular as the basic break barrel class. Had to practically beg people to shoot that.

Mike
 
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Is there any real evidence that FT is dwindling because it's too expensive?

In the 12 years I've been around it I've never heard of anyone that left because it was too costly.

I would imagine a new budget based division would have the potential to be as popular as the basic break barrel class. Had to practically beg people to shoot that.

Mike
Could be Mike, and maybe some guys might try it for the challenge and to see if they can "whoop" the more expensive guns with their low priced rig?