Do you expect your Pellet gun to shoot Slugs?

[Franklink]

Thought about this for 15 or 20 minutes and this is easy guys.

Download and print some of Centercut's EBR challenges. 

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/ebr-target-challenge/?referrer=1

Shoot it, at 100 yards (5 shots per group).

3 of the 5 groups need to have all 5 shots under 1 inch for your gun to shoot slugs @ moa the majority of the time, like this. (and that's a slim "majority")

In other words, three of your 5 shot groups need to have all shots slightly better than 9's. 

Good luck.

(reality)

Or how about a "head to head" "reality" test. Do what you note, but compare pellet to slug. And maybe try them at 125 yards, or 150 yards, since that seems to be the trend these days. Just looking for a little "consistency" in any comparison. But I'm sure you could produce PELLET groups at that range showing your criteria met that I wouldn'tconsider calling less than trustworthy (I won't say lie).

I did exactly that, about 6 weeks ago. Only a little closer, it was either 101 or 103 yards (cant remember exactly). I wanted to know which shot more accurately out to 100 yards. I'm not anti-slug in any way, I just choose to shoot the most accurate projectile. 

I shot a "card" (the above practice EBR target) with the 25.4gr MRDs.

Then shot a card with the 20.2gr NSAs.

Then shot a card with the 25.4gr MRDs.

Then shot a card with the 20.2gr NSAs.

I had sighter paper at 100 yards and a target at 50 yards to verify aim point and point of impact ("zero").

All four cards were in the 210-220 range. Conditions weren't great.

The slug need 0.8-0.9mil hold off. The pellet needed 0.3-0.4 mil hold off. 

Now, in a windy situation, and shooting at 100 yards where the slugs supposedly have the better hand we would expect the 0.072 BC slug to not only shoot higher scores, but also need less hold off than the 0.049 BC pellet. (In previous experiments, when going from the 0.03 BC 18.13 to the 0.049 BC 25.39 there was a marked and obvious improvement in wind drift and ability to put it where I wanted. So the argument that the difference in BC from the 20.2 slugs to the 25.4 pellets isn't big enough doesn't hold water. )

These results are all very similar to the results seen from a gun that I don't own anymore. It was a test platform and as such I had three barrels that would fit, a .22 Poly that came out of a Daystate Red Wolf HP, an old stock .22 unchoked Korean barrel that would have fit a Career prior to machining, and a standard 12 land and groove LW barrel. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of testing with that gun and those three barrels. Two of those three barrels are about as good as barrels can get (Korean and Daystate). Same results from all three, it'd do okay with slugs, but not better than a good high BC pellet like the 25.4gr MRD

In my experience and in this range of caliber and fpe (say under 100fpe and .30 and under), slugs shot from even a high quality airgun are simply not the "magic bullet" (pun intended) for long range accuracy that the hype wagon is pushing.

(Perhaps there are some real gains to be had in the big bore realm, but who wants to shoot a big bore in any sort of the volume we can enjoyably shoot these relatively small bore airguns. And perhaps if I had a nearly infinite # of rifling profiles to test, and a company willing to make them free of charge as long as I kept making YouTube videos to help sell their guns, maybe i could get to a point of accuracy that I find acceptable with slugs.)

 

[bandg]

Thanks, and interesting. So you feel that 50% of shooters believe that they can shoot slugs accurately out of the box from their pellet guns with no more additional effort that shooting pellets? I think that's what you are saying? Lets start another topic, and phrase it that way, with a yes or no answer... It'll be an interesting poll.

"No more additional effort". Your words, not mine. But feel free to show different. I'd say common sense would indicate that more effort might well be needed with the slugs. After all, they are quite new to airguns IN COMPARISON TO PELLETS.

From your original post in this thread-"a pellet gun that actually shoots a specific slug accurately is at best a lucky thing. Yes, we all know that some pellet barrels shoot some slugs, but generally it’s a crap shoot." "A SPECIFIC SLUG". Seems the same can relate to specificity in pellets. "GENERALLY IT"S A CRAP SHOOT". And a specific pellet for a specific air gun is different HOW?

I tried to point out that expecting to choose a specific pellet (especially in light of how long pellets have been around) that shoots well in any specific gun is also "at best a lucky thing". That surely seems to be completely correct to me as PLENTY has been written about the need to "find the right pellet" for a given airgun. Considering that slug shooting is extremely new in relation to pellet shooting IN AIRGUNS, a little leeway in WHAT CAN WORK would seem to be logical.

From Centercut-""

"A pellet gun that actually shoots a specific slug accurately is at best a lucky thing"

Isn't the same true for a SPECIFIC PELLET? I have "pellet" guns that shoot both some pellets and some slugs very well. And some that don't.

In a way, that's partially true… However, most pellets guns are designed around a specific pellet, like FX and the .22 JSB 18.1 and 15.89. Anyone that has gone through the process will tell you that generally (ooops, there I go again talking non-specifics) they spent little time finding a pellet that works in their gun, but spent significantly more time finding a slug that shot well… of course, it’s all relative…""

So, since "most pellet guns are designed around a specific pellet", it seems two things should be true. First, looking for a pellet that works in any specific gun shouldn't be necessary. How true is that?? Second, even if such IS THE CASE that a specific rifle would have a "go to always works pellet" (and I'll ask again, how true is that?), then it seems logical that it might take a while to "FIND" a slug that works in the same specific rifle as well as a pellet "designed" for that gun.

Is this illogical in any way?

 

[Centercut]

I would say your logic is impeccable, relatively speaking. 

 

[bandg]

I would say your logic is impeccable, relatively speaking.

Good enough, specifically speaking.

 

[Franklink]

Plot summary for The Emperors New Clothes" from wikipedia

"Two swindlers arrive at the capital city of an emperor who spends lavishly on clothing at the expense of state matters. Posing as weavers, they offer to supply him with magnificent clothes that are invisible to those who are stupid or incompetent. The emperor hires them, and they set up looms and go to work. A succession of officials, and then the emperor himself, visit them to check their progress. Each sees that the looms are empty but pretends otherwise to avoid being thought a fool. Finally, the weavers report that the emperor's suit is finished. They mime dressing him and he sets off in a procession before the whole city. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to appear inept or stupid, until a child blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all. The people then realize that everyone has been fooled. Although startled, the emperor continues the procession, walking more proudly than ever."

 

[ADK]

I specifically wanted the option....and my Uragan loves slugs. I've only shot 31gr out of my .25 and it's a tack driver, but I have some 40s and 50s coming from Nielsen next week. It'll be interesting the numbers from these heavier slugs.

 

[wll2506]

With many of my guns shooting slugs is very important -- it is not so much the initial velocity but the tremendous downrange energy that really matters. That .070 to .090+ BC really makes a huge difference.



wll

 

[Smokeyaone420]

My sentiments exactly. A pellet gun that shoots slugs (well) involves a lot of luck, some deep ties to an airgun manufacturer (and an accompanying YouTube channel), or flat out dishonesty. I started a topic a few months ago asking for typical slug groups at 100 yards. Some showed some of their cherry picked stuff, but I got the very distinct feeling that this slug insanity is a bit emperors new clothes-esque (nobody willing to stick their neck out and call bull-poop on the "slugs are better" argument). In fact, I started another discussion questioning how come we aren't seeing markedly better scores from the slug shooters in the Extreme Field Target events (out to 100 yards and up to 100 fpe). If slugs are the shiz-nit, how come they can't outscore us poor guys shooting pellets?

In fact, quite appropriate timing to pose this question as I finally had a chance to test 3 more types of slugs in my long ranger just this weekend, and........no go. And, mind you, this is a gun that I had a new barrel machined for, a 12 land/groove UNCHOKED LW. The 3 slugs I tested yesterday gets the grand total up to around 12 or so, and none of them have shot as well as the 25.4gr MRDs. And I'm talking 100 yard accuracy here, not the shooting a slug at 30 yards sillyness. The "common knowledge" knocked around the forums is that unchoked does better with slugs, but not in the case of this gun. Really I think that is the gist of your post/peoples frustration with slugs-ubiquitous claims that are simply passed on, but never confirmed by the passer-on'er.

For the detail-interested....the gun I mention above is a Taipan Veteran Long that was purchased specifically as a long range/high BC gun for Extreme Field Target and long range pdog popping. The OEM barrel was superb....with JSB 18s, and nothing else. I needed something with a higher BC, either the MRDs, or perhaps even a slug. The ensuing experiment was a rebarrel with an unchoked LW blank. The emphasis on the unchoked being that the OEM barrel was severely overchoked and hated heavy/high BC .22 projectiles (slug or pellet). So the logic was that an unchoked barrel might do better with the MRDs, and maybe even a slug. Well so far I'm 12 varieties (various brands and different configurations of weight/diameter/design) of slug deep and every one has the same problem Steve123 mentioned: 2 or 3 or even four into a kinda decent group, and then 1 or 2 that simply don't go where they should. And the errant shots can not explained (excused) away by wind, or flinching during trigger break, or etc etc etc. If this particular gun didn't shoot the MRDs so unbelievably well, I'd be pretty pissed.

And the above scenario is just with one gun. I'm privileged to get to shoot a lot of high quality guns; my own, review guns, and friend's guns. A pellet gun that shoots slugs better than pellets is a rare bird. I can think of two that have come through my hands (out of a relative many) that shot slugs quite well. A .22 Red Wolf Standard with GCU2 board (review gun) did really good with the 0.216, 20.2 grain NSAs. And a .177 Brocock Concept Elite (I own this one) does really good with 12.5gr NSAs. Those particular stand-outs still have/had a pellet that shot better than the slug that the gun did/does pretty well with. Every other gun that I have touched did or does MUCH worse with slugs than pellets.

The claims of ANY airgun shooting MOA @ 100 yards CONSISTENTLY, with slugs or pellets, gets taken with more than a grain of salt from me. Even more so when the claimer is wearing his birthday suit and strutting around like a peacock.

I'm a poor boy so can't afford to come to you. But I got a cheap 400 dollar avenger and I'll give you a run for your money with some 34gr h&ns.light pellet shoot well. But as far as heavy stuff goes. These h&ns shoot better in it then anything. But I did pack the barrel shroud with conetic sand and port and polish a thing or two to make it do that.i haven't seen an fx that can hang with me yet. So be careful what you ask for. I don't want to hurt your feelings.

 

[Franklink]

I'm a poor boy so can't afford to come to you. But I got a cheap 400 dollar avenger and I'll give you a run for your money with some 34gr h&ns.light pellet shoot well. But as far as heavy stuff goes. These h&ns shoot better in it then anything. But I did pack the barrel shroud with conetic sand and port and polish a thing or two to make it do that.i haven't seen an fx that can hang with me yet. So be careful what you ask for. I don't want to hurt your feelings.

Really old thread here....

But that's absolutely awesome that you're having great results with slugs. I'm not anti slug, just frustrated with the time and effort and money that I've put into them, to still not be better than pellets, for me. So, again, I'm really excited for you to have found slug paydirt.

Since I posted the above over a year ago I've modified my stance a bit. I only have experience with airguns less than 50fpe. I suspect this huge slug advantage everyone totes is the higher power stuff, up around .22 rimfire power levels. So, I acknowledge that there's almost an entirely different tier of slugs than what I've played with. For me and under 50fpe, no slug outshoots a good batch of .22 MRDs from a decent gun and barrel.

And no need to come to me, I've politely requested this on AGN a few times so will here again. Shoot ten, ten shot groups at 100 yards, all on the same piece of paper, and then share it here. Not a challenge so much as an interest to see if you're averaging MOA accuracy. I'm rooting for you.

 

[Emu]

If so, why? You bought a pellet gun that was set up from the factory to shoot pellets. Unless you specifically ordered a Slug barrel or liner of course. A pellet gun that actually shoots a specific slug accurately is at best a lucky thing. Yes, we all know that some pellet barrels shoot some slugs, but generally it’s a crap shoot.
I got lucky 1 1/2 years ago with my .22 Red Wolf HP and it shot lights out with the first slug I tried, the .217 JSB KO. Other guns not so lucky and some just won’t shoot slugs of any kind.
But it seems as slugs become more popular shooters are complaining more and more that their Pellet gun doesn’t shoot Slugs. My .22 EDGun R3 Long shoots slugs accurately but only very light low BC slugs like the NSA 20.2 or FX Hybrids. Hardly a huge improvement over the JSB RD Monsters.
When I REALLY wanted to shoot slugs I built a specific slug gun starting with a .25 FX Impact X with PP, high power slug kit and Slug A liner. Now I can shoot higher BC slugs like the NSA 43.5 accurately out to 225 yards. Maybe further, but that’s as far as I’ve gone when hunting.
Just wondering what others think about this topic?

My Vulcan 2 .25 Cal shots some slugs like a champ!

As a matter of fact, the accuracy achieved with H&N grizzlies 31 grain at 220 yards is all I always dream about in regard of air rifles ( I am a hunter not a bench rest shooter).

 

[thomasair]

I’ve never tried 10 10 shot groups….but the In The Rings slug challenge thread I started in the BR section (which almost nobody participates in) is 5 5 shot groups on a single row of N50 target at 100y. My last two attempts were about .57 MOA average for 5 groups and around .72 MOA for the other 5…..so around .65 MOA combined for the 2 attempts. If I had a nice day I believe I could average well under 1 MOA at 100y on a 10x10 single page format.

Mike

 

[Franklink]

I’ve never tried 10 10 shot groups….but the In The Rings slug challenge thread I started in the BR section (which almost nobody participates in) is 5 5 shot groups on a single row of N50 target at 100y. My last two attempts were about .57 MOA average for 5 groups and around .72 MOA for the other 5…..so around .65 MOA combined for the 2 attempts. If I had a nice day I believe I could average well under 1 MOA at 100y on a 10x10 single page format.

Mike

Awesome shooting Mike, as always. But what you're shooting isn't anywhere near the class of off the shelf guns and slugs. Your expertise plays a primary role in the types of slug groups that you're getting (custom barrels, machined by the master, shooting custom slugs that a likely astronomical amount of time went into developing).

In other words, and in the vein of the original topic, you're not getting good slug groups with a pellet gun. You're getting great slug groups with a very meticulously developed slug gun.

 

[thomasair]

I understand….but at least it means it’s potentially possible. I also don’t think there are any factory slugs or barrels out there that are very accurate….at least in the long term. You can get some flashes in the pan….but it’s fleeting.

Mike

 

[Richieg]

My Daystate's and RAW's were not HYPED UP saying they were slug shooters, so there was no expectation they would shoot slugs accurately, and I'm ok with that. I didn't buy them AS slug shooters. They shoot pellets great...so WHY would I go to slugs? That's one bandwagon I'm not going to jump on...Its hard enough trying to get pellets to cooperate.

 

[mercado]

I purchased the uragan all 4 and had them tune for the heaviest pellet aviable on each caliber.. 177 - 16g .. .22 - 25g .. 25 - 34g .. 30 -50g .. 177 to 25 to a average of 960fps and the .30 in the 900 .my result are ridiculous.. 177 with 15g nsa -- .22 -25g knockouts and fx hybrids .. .25 with nsa 34.9g -- .30 old nsa . FX hybrid n .knockouts.. shoot them flawless..perfect at the tune they have .. so much that in those 4 guns.. I use only slugs..for 2 reason .. one is that was what I was looking for..in order to make my own slugs ..to avoid the challenge in pellet dies .I ordered a Corbin press.. and send the slugs samples that worked on my guns so I could do my own.. 2 at that tune from 177 to 25 I'm no longer available to shoot pellets the all spiral all the way..even the heavy ones..what brings me to the conclusion after my experience and the explanation of how the fx slug liners were developed that 1-17.7 was not a bad twist choice for the slugs if the weights are the same as the heaviest pellet in each cal ...is the final choke what decided is it will work..with the exception of the .30 uragan that is 1-15..

 

[mercado]

All my other guns that I had in the last 9 years..none were able to shoot slugs accurately
with the exception of my compact 177 cricket that like flat base 10g slugs and my condor. 22 barrel that from .. 3 .. I used to have only one shoot slugs flawless up to 40g that tells me that it must have a difference in the choke of that condor barrel from the other 2 .

 

[JungleShooter]

I also don’t think there are any factory slugs or barrels out there that are very accurate….at least in the long term. You can get some flashes in the pan….but it’s fleeting.

Mike

Mike,

I perk up whenever you post something, so much to learn.....

Could you explain a bit what you meant by the flash in the pan/ fleeting of an accurate slug shooting?

• Do guns go through "phases" of shooting slugs good for a while — only to laps back into bad slug performance?
• Does the barrel foul up ridiculously after just a few dozen shots...?
• Are the groups that a"prove" the claimed accuracy statistically not reliable enough — they were mostly luck...?
• other?



Thanks, and keep up those amazing groups. Spectacular!
That 5 groups of 5 shots on N50 at 100y — yeah, I'd like to try that for the fun of it....

Matthias

 

[thomasair]

I just mean that the gun really isn’t that good. A singular 5 shot group isn’t representative of how a gun shoots on average. I can make a few changes to my slug gun that will transform it into garbage….but it still might shoot a great 5 shot group. That’s just a flash in the pan. If someone posts a singular group, it’s usually because it’s something special. If that group is 1 MOA….it probably means that their gun averages 2-3 MOA.

Slugs shot from a proper barrel with the potential to be accurate have a very high contact area. Maintaining the barrel friction at a precise amount is very hard. The barrel will change significantly. These frictional changes affect a lot of things. Mostly, they will cause up and down from vibration changes….plus the actual velocity gain or loss. I’m speaking about my rifle which is tremendously more rigid than anything else you are going to find. Rifles with lots of hinge points are going to be much worse.

Mike

 

[Jacob542002]

My umarex gauntlet has yet to be successful shooting slugs