Springer vs. PCP
- Thread starter PNWTrekker
- Start date
Jonnes, you have a nice air rifle and that is a very good target. But shooting one nice group is not like touching a 1/8th inch 10 ring 20 times. Those of us that shoot the 30 yard challenge target have observed that many times. I've shot smaller groups than that but it doesn't prove much. I want me and my guns to be able to consistently hit what I shoot at. That is what benchrest shooting is all about. Groups are great for testing pellets but they are not like shooting a benchrest target.
I remain unconvinced, in other words. The pdf for the target is on the thread but if you want I'll put it in a pm if you ask. You just print it out and "waste" a few pellets. I hope you find it to be fun and do well. But if all you show me are nice groups I will be remain unconvinced your nice springer will shoot with even my inexpensive PCPs. I shot a 195 today with my Stoeger Bullshark in 22 caliber, for instance, in 5 mph winds. That gun has shot a 198 in my hands. I am not claiming to be a great shot, just providing examples of what I think a gun should be able to do to be considered very accurate.
View attachment 30-Yard Challenge Target.1654254248.pdf
I remain unconvinced, in other words. The pdf for the target is on the thread but if you want I'll put it in a pm if you ask. You just print it out and "waste" a few pellets. I hope you find it to be fun and do well. But if all you show me are nice groups I will be remain unconvinced your nice springer will shoot with even my inexpensive PCPs. I shot a 195 today with my Stoeger Bullshark in 22 caliber, for instance, in 5 mph winds. That gun has shot a 198 in my hands. I am not claiming to be a great shot, just providing examples of what I think a gun should be able to do to be considered very accurate.
View attachment 30-Yard Challenge Target.1654254248.pdf
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man you’re expensive! lol happy ending?
55-60 pumps is less than 2 minutes. i agree from zero is a task hehe
i don’t want to show the starting point. it’s a task from zero but 2 minutes every time after that is cake. i got the NUOGE pump for this very reason. wasted my money.
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I had a cheap compressor to start, it ran for a year. Gave it to my nephew when I bought my Tuxing dual cylinder. He has replaced the rings once. Still running about 3 years in. Granted he only fills a couple rifles.
That your experience was bad does not mean anyone else will have the same experience.
I am not going to waste my time hand pumping anything when I can use a compressor. Especially if you have more than one PCP or you only have one but use it regularly.
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i had one last 1 month. they replaced with a new one. lasted 2 months. then i got a gx-cs3
yes, i agree. a low capacity tube like notos is manageable with a hand pump. more guns.. nope. hard pass
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First of; don't be this condescending please, you don't know me, nor do you know my rifle's capabilities. I've been shooting (this rifle, and many more before it) for well over 40 years now. I also participated in numerous national and international air rifle, rimfire and long range centerfire competitions, here in Europe and elsewhere on this planet since 1987. Both as a private person, as well as professionally. I know what I - and my rifles - can and can't do, because I know them inside out, as if they are part of myself. This thing won many competitions already, during it's different phases of tuning over the past years. And in it's current state, it's an €1.800 euro costing springer that can most definitely compete with many PCP's, because it has numerous times and because I tell you so. Telling me otherwise based on nothing but a gut feeling, never having shot a springer yourself, is like you calling me I'm a liar. That's rather disrespectful mate, not to say presumptuous.
That said; I think we also might have a definition problem here. Because you talk "benchrest" and in your opinion hitting a 4mm 10-ring consistently at 30 yards is accurate (and it is, don't get me wrong there!), and I say hitting a dime size target (or a rat's brain) consistently at 50 meters is accurate. And there it is! Because it all depends on what you want to do (from plinking to benchrest), how much money you're willing to spend, what you want to achieve, and your personal skills. I see people shooting 200 in the topic about the "30 yard challenge" with a fully custom built PCP match rifle from a benchrest vise. Sorry, but that is impossible to complete with, with a springer shooting off-hand because of the voilance that's going on inside of a springer. I even want to go as far that I say; shooting a rifle from a vise, where is the challenge in that?! But hey, that's my personal opinion. No sorry mate, what you do is comparing apples with oranges.
Also, I see different caliber sizes being used in this challenge, but as you surely know, a .25 caliber pellet makes bigger holes, this will - when shooting less accurate - hit the 10-ring more often, than the 1.4 times (in diameter) smaller .177 pellet. I don't see anyone compensating for that. Wait, let me get my .72 cal Beaumont PCP and compete with you in this, that will be fun and competitive... NOT!
I use this (.177) springer for pest control also, next to my FX Dreamline Tactical Compact (in .22). The FX (at low power) is for shorter distances (5 to 25 meters) in stables, this HW97 I shot mostly in the field for distances from 10 up to 50/55 meters. Both hitting rats in the nugget each and every time. Both doing their job accuratly in their respective fields.
So let's agree to disagree and conclude that it all depends on your capabilities, the level of tuning, and the purpose. TS is talking about getting his kid ready for the introduction into the shooting sports, and asks if a springer is as accurate as a PCP in that respect. And from that perspective, it abso-effing-lutely is, taking in account all relevant factors. In this case; a new shooter, being a small kid in this case, that needs the best tool to learn how to shoot. And for all novices, it is not a PCP (that's for lazy people) but a springer that wil teach you how to shoot properly.
Regardless, I'm always in for a challenge and willing to put my money where my mouth is, so I printed out 4 of these "30-yard challenge" targets and will shoot them as soon as the wind dies and the rain stops. I will shoot them with my FX Dreamline GRS in .22 caliber and with this .177 HW97 springer, because these are my two most accurate air rifles. I will get back to you with the results soon, you infidel!
Thanks, a couldn't agree more with you. This beaut has been in the making for years, and is now at the point that I just can't and won't try to improve it any more because it's perfect as it is now.
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Jonnes,
Great! I hope you shoot a 200 or at least 195 or better with one of your guns, hopefully your nice springer.
With respect to scoring we use a 22 caliber scoring plug regardless of caliber. I don't think it works great for 25 caliber holes but most people shoot 177 or 22 and it works well for those calibers. A scoring plug with magnification seems to be the most used but mine is just a turned cylinder with a scoring lip.. Works for me. I think a 25 has an advantage due to the hole size and even bigger more so but if your review the spreadsheet they are not often used. One of my 198s on the current year spreadsheet is with my P35-25, however.
We are shooting from a bench rest. At least one top shooter at least used to use bags. Many use a bipod in the front and a rear rest, sometimes one that is adjustable for elevation and windage. There is probably somebody with a really nice joystick rest. I am using a Caldwell Rock BR front rest that adjusts for windage and elevation this year but I shot my 2 200s in prior years with a bipod and home made windage and elevation adjustable monopod. I don't think there are any rules about what sort of rest you use. Anything you have should be fine.
Sorry if I was offensive in some way. You are right that we do not know each other. I am skeptical about springers and we still disagree about what a novice should start with but in the end that is up to the novice. I'm glad that you apparently enjoy both.
Jim
Great! I hope you shoot a 200 or at least 195 or better with one of your guns, hopefully your nice springer.
With respect to scoring we use a 22 caliber scoring plug regardless of caliber. I don't think it works great for 25 caliber holes but most people shoot 177 or 22 and it works well for those calibers. A scoring plug with magnification seems to be the most used but mine is just a turned cylinder with a scoring lip.. Works for me. I think a 25 has an advantage due to the hole size and even bigger more so but if your review the spreadsheet they are not often used. One of my 198s on the current year spreadsheet is with my P35-25, however.
We are shooting from a bench rest. At least one top shooter at least used to use bags. Many use a bipod in the front and a rear rest, sometimes one that is adjustable for elevation and windage. There is probably somebody with a really nice joystick rest. I am using a Caldwell Rock BR front rest that adjusts for windage and elevation this year but I shot my 2 200s in prior years with a bipod and home made windage and elevation adjustable monopod. I don't think there are any rules about what sort of rest you use. Anything you have should be fine.
Sorry if I was offensive in some way. You are right that we do not know each other. I am skeptical about springers and we still disagree about what a novice should start with but in the end that is up to the novice. I'm glad that you apparently enjoy both.
Jim
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Undo. Retry.
Well @JimD, there will be a second try with the springer because it has a couple of disadvantages for this kind of target compared to my PCP's. First, no bipod so I shot of my range bag. Second, the scope on this thing is for pest control and (H)FT, not for this kind of precision work. I shot prone by the way, no bench rest, just bipods and a range bag. I know, I cheated a little bit and used the first 4 targets as sighters, but you'll get the picture.
The Mil-Dot reticle on this 4/16x-40 Hawke scope is quite thick. So I'm going to slap a 24x half Mil-Dot reticle Sidewinder on this thing to see what the effect is. I'm also going to buy a sand bag for my HW97 so I can shoot a bit more consistent. None the less, here are the results. And taking in concideration that if it shot .22 cal pellets, due to the size a couple of 9's would have been 10's, and 8's that would have been 9's when the caliber was .22.
Something about proof and pudding. Well, do you think this is accurate (enough for what 99% of airgunners do)? Will be continued, because I've printed 4 targets, so there's one left.
FIrst: the HW97 in .177 (and there was some wind today). A total score of 178.
Next, the FX Dreamline GRS in .22. A total score of 199.
Next, my FX DRS Tactical in .22. Much to my surprise, it outshot my Dreamline (which has been tuned, this thing shoots out-of-the-box!!!). A nice 200 out of 200 points. DAMN, THIS FEELS GOOD!!!!
Not the most ideal situation with my HW97. But I'm satisfied with this score, regardless.
Like I said, there's one card left, I have a better scope lying around, and there's a shooting bag inbound. So ... to be continued!
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55 to 60 pumps in 2 minutes ? do you get a lot of moisture ? I have a 3 stage hand pump . about 3 seconds extending the pump (letting it fill with air ) then pushing down till my arms are locked and extended then bending my legs and putting my weight on the pump till the third stage empties into the cylinder . apx. 4 seconds on the down stroke other wise the 3rd stage does not empty into the gun it will bounce the handle back up wasting the compressed air i just worked for . So probably average 10 seconds per pump .
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i don’t recall having a lot of moisture. i was pumping when i was living in california, less humidity than here in hawaii
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Jonnes,
Those are great targets from your PCP, especially for initial efforts. Better than anything I've shot this year. Both are 200s. There are 24 targets and you get to throw out two sets of two. So you have plenty of 10s remaining to score a 200. You should put them on the thread and let Ed add them to the spreadsheet. There are not a whole lot of 200s. Great shooting.
I know what you mean about scopes. I do not often use a scope with less than 24X magnification for this.
You can clearly shoot better than I can. I will be interested in how much a different scope improves your springer score. I'm confident it will improve.
Jim
Those are great targets from your PCP, especially for initial efforts. Better than anything I've shot this year. Both are 200s. There are 24 targets and you get to throw out two sets of two. So you have plenty of 10s remaining to score a 200. You should put them on the thread and let Ed add them to the spreadsheet. There are not a whole lot of 200s. Great shooting.
I know what you mean about scopes. I do not often use a scope with less than 24X magnification for this.
You can clearly shoot better than I can. I will be interested in how much a different scope improves your springer score. I'm confident it will improve.
Jim
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Jonnes,
I'd need to use a scoring plug on the target to be sure but I think the first target has a higher X count. I'm guessing 17, I might be off a little. 200 with 20Xs is a top score. I don't think it's quite that good but it's still one of the best targets this year. I think one of the other shooters, Tommy, has a program that can score a target from the picture. If you post it to the thread he will probably use that and give you the result. The springer score looks like a 185. I shot a worse target with a PCP this morning.
The really good shooters (not me) like to shoot the "Match" target where you score all 20 targets. You could certainly get a 200 on that too. And if you really want a challenge they shoot the same targets at 40 yards. I do not have that much space available but the 30 yard challenge target is enough of a challenge for me at this point.
I hope you found it to be fun. I shoot these targets waiting for squirrel season to open.
Jim
I'd need to use a scoring plug on the target to be sure but I think the first target has a higher X count. I'm guessing 17, I might be off a little. 200 with 20Xs is a top score. I don't think it's quite that good but it's still one of the best targets this year. I think one of the other shooters, Tommy, has a program that can score a target from the picture. If you post it to the thread he will probably use that and give you the result. The springer score looks like a 185. I shot a worse target with a PCP this morning.
The really good shooters (not me) like to shoot the "Match" target where you score all 20 targets. You could certainly get a 200 on that too. And if you really want a challenge they shoot the same targets at 40 yards. I do not have that much space available but the 30 yard challenge target is enough of a challenge for me at this point.
I hope you found it to be fun. I shoot these targets waiting for squirrel season to open.
Jim
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Well a larger caliber is always going to look better for distance, but if we keep it to equal calibers... I actually think you'll see accuracy retained out to 50m and possibly beyond for the springer (once the pellet has left the barrel it is pretty much the same as a pcp at the same power).
I shoot with Cameron Kerndt quite often and his springer is amazing out to FT distances if he does his part. Looking at some of his scores (beat Open by two shots and missed beating Hunter by three shots) his springer was probably shooting better than most of the pcp's at that event (he was at 12 ft-lbs). The shooter is doing a lot of work with the springer to do this vs the pcp shooter who is not dealing with hold sensitivity and recoil.
Next can of worms to open:
Should springer shooters be shooting the same scores as the pcp shooters in field target?
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Should? No, why? Could? When you have the balls, yes! Is it fun to outshoot those "lazy" PCP shooters, see those jaws drop when you outshoot them, and feel like an actual boss when you do? HELL YEAH!
According to the postal service, my new shooting bags will arrive today. In the coming days I'll mount the SideWinder to my HW97K and do the last target to see what it does with a better reticle and larger magnification. To be continued...
That's my experience also.
And that my friend, is what shooting springers makes such a s..t load of fun! But springers outshooting PCP's can be done, if and when the shooter plays it's part well. I.e., when the shooter knows how to shoot. That's why I always say; learn (kids) to shoot with a springer, if they can handle that, they can handle practically any type of weapon. From a "lazy" zero-recoil PCP, to a large caliber center fire rifle. Especially now (here in Europe), that might come in handy when those damned Ruskies try to cross our border.
That man is a legend! I've haven't had the privilege yet. Most of us can learn a lot from that man.
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I love most of all of my air guns, however only the springers give the one feeling when the gun and I hit the target as we are as one. Charles
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That's why this HW97K will never leave my collection. It's my "if I could have only 1" gun.
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I am a Springer guy. Actually I am a powder burner guy. But comparing my 6PPCs or 6BRAs, or 22BRs to a PCP whould be as foolish as comparing the PCP to a Springer? In their own style of shooting they can all be very accurate. But I will say I see a lot of PCP groups at various distance that if I were into them I would not be happy. But I see that with many types of guns. I think the appeal of PCPs for many is they are pretty easy to sit down and shot reasonably well while Springers require some time and effort to reach a similar level of results. So any of you guys with PCPs who are feeling full of yourself bring a fistful of money we will go shoot 400 yard groups, score, whatever. Might be better to keep Apple's to Apple's and so on so forth. Likewise any of you Springer guys that what to go up against a PCP at say 50 yards, don't look at me for financial backing.
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Nah, springs walk scopes and beat the s---t out of optics and are just obnoxious and noisy things and are just a PITA for so little power and they are huge, long and heavy. The appeal of a PCP to me is power with no recoil and accuracy sufficient to dispatch sizable pests ethically at ranges a spring gun can hardly reach.
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So no challenges for you? LOL
"Hunters" are the only unethical thing in the equation, an airgun is just an airgun, it can't do anything on its own... Don't push BS that a springer is "unethical", the meat popsicle selecting the rifle, prey and pulling the trigger is the only issue when it comes to hunting ethics.
When the top springer shooters shoot pcp in competition, the pcp shooters better be on their A game or they will get crushed. Train accordingly or get destroyed.
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