Black wolf prices

[Ratzy]

YOU feel this way, that doesn't mean that others agree. And that's why $3-4k + airguns sell.

Some people struggle to understand that a perspective different than their own is even a possibility. But we're all individuals.

You buy your expensive wine and enjoy it, and appreciate it. And guys that like to buy expensive airguns will buy them, and enjoy them, and appreciate them.

You trying to tell those of us that have experienced the difference between a high end and low end airgun that there is no difference, would be the same thing as us trying to tell you that there is no difference between boxed and fine wine. For those that are capable of noting the difference, there is indeed a difference.

At no point in any of my responses have I claimed that there is no difference between high end and sub $1000 guns. It is the inability of anyone to quantify the $2000 difference beyond "because it is what I want".

That you assume I've never shot high end guns is on you for not asking. I've had multiple Walther LG400, FX Impact & King in my hands and going back FX Boss when it was new (the first PCP I ever shot). Which is why I know specifically that the difference in function is much less than you and others seem to believe. The Walther on the bench does show more but that is due to specificity of design. I liked the Boss so much I own the 3 siblings, Boss, Royale and Bobcat.

I also dont struggle in the least understanding the motivation of the non-competition air gun buyer spending $3,000 for an air gun. I pointed it out several times.

Been a lot of economic and psych studies and thesis written about said motivations. I've actually read a few of the published articles. I also read the hilarious responses to those studies denying those motivations.

 

[Trucker3573]

Any hobby/item in existence….price of item goes up at a much higher rate than that of better performance/quality does. Always reach a point where you pay way more for just a little nicer.

 

[Ratzy]

One thing about the audio equipment is the sound like the wine is in the mind of the beholder.
The Blackwolf 1/4 inch less groups is quantifiable. It may or may not shoot better than your $2000
cheaper RAW or FX or Taipan or dare I say Umarex

One of my great regrets in life, selling my 1970s stereo equipment.
The Carver Preamp
Phase Linear 700 Amp
Infinity Quantum Reference Standard Speakers
Pioneer PL-510 Turntable
Pioneer CTF-9191 Cassette Deck

But yeah, I've pointed out that 1/4". But that 1/4" also requires skills that are unlikely in the general shooter. I know mine are long gone due to lack of continuous practice, age, eyesight and nerve damage. Good day I'm lucky to drop 3 on top of each other at 40 yards. I still enjoy trying.

 

[Ratzy]

Since you minored in economics, you’ll appreciate that (i) value is subjective and (ii) incremental value/use decreases (including the incremental additional use of additional $).

Since watches and wine have been used: Rolex vs. Vacheron vs. Patek. Big difference between those even if they’re the same material etc and all together more or less the same thing. “Fine things” vs. “finer fine things”?! Nay, just a higher subjective value/use for some people. Same with a nice Rousseau vs. DRC. That higher perceived value may have something to do with exclusivity driven by pricing. But it may also simply be looks, individual taste, something “feeling” better than the other. Or with the amount of disposable income and that one person may be willing to spent that 2k for the addition 1/4inch reduction in groups just encause that 2k is pocket change for them. Or because they get a lot of personal satisfaction (i.e., value) out of the ability to shot 1/4 better groups or whatever it is that makes them buy a BW. That may not be sufficient incremental value to justify 2k for YOU. But for someone else it apparently is. I guess the opposition you’re facing in this discussion is because you argue that there is “one” value of a given thing valid for all, Hence, you’re essentially saying whoever buys a BW is being taken for a ride. Not (necessarily) true though.

As another example, some people spend 10s of thousands on speakers and other audio equipment and swear that it’s worth it because of sound quality. I’d never even think about doing so, definitely not “worth it”. For me, that is. Seems like a fairly graspable concept…

You always reach a point in most markets where you pay a premium just for the name. No added functional improvement or exclusivity, simply bragging rights. Apple being a good example in the consumer market.

The way I see it, the air gun hobby is reaching that point where the perceived high end are pricing themselves as if their products have the exclusivity of luxury goods. Several of the comments have shown that the marketing has been effective. Question then becomes how much will the market bear? How many Impact M5 will FX sell with their next increment?

 

[cavedweller]

One thing about the audio equipment is the sound like the wine is in the mind of the beholder.
The Blackwolf 1/4 inch less groups is quantifiable. It may or may not shoot better than your $2000
cheaper RAW or FX or Taipan or dare I say Umarex

Well that sounds like an excellent way to sort this out. In a controlled environment.... let's put a barrage of those cheaper guns up against a number of more expensive guns at 50 yards and see what happens. Not a fair test for an expensive 10 K 10 meter <6 ftlbs guns though.

 

[blackdog899]

One of my great regrets in life, selling my 1970s stereo equipment.
The Carver Preamp
Phase Linear 700 Amp
Infinity Quantum Reference Standard Speakers
Pioneer PL-510 Turntable
Pioneer CTF-9191 Cassette Deck

But yeah, I've pointed out that 1/4". But that 1/4" also requires skills that are unlikely in the general shooter. I know mine are long gone due to lack of continuous practice, age, eyesight and nerve damage. Good day I'm lucky to drop 3 on top of each other at 40 yards. I still enjoy trying.

Once again I’m down in the lower priced stuff. Got 4 receivers three years ago.
Two were junk and eBay got my money back. This was Kenwood and tecnics and the like.
But I like my rock loud and like most things I have good enough for me. Pretty much deaf
over 2500 Hz anyway.
About the shooting I get the skill of offhand as I shot smallbore NRA silhouette for 5 or 6 years
a decade ago. That was difficult to do well. But the bench ? I don’t know, if you know how to
shoot I figure I can do what the gun can do and have proven it at 50 yard ( rimfire) matches and
1000 yard f-class with lesser equipment ( yeah I’m bragging ha ! )

 

[Ratzy]

Once again I’m down in the lower priced stuff. Got 4 receivers three years ago.
Two were junk and eBay got my money back. This was Kenwood and tecnics and the like.
But I like my rock loud and like most things I have good enough for me. Pretty much deaf
over 2500 Hz anyway.
About the shooting I get the skill of offhand as I shot smallbore NRA silhouette for 5 or 6 years
a decade ago. That was difficult to do well. But the bench ? I don’t know, if you know how to
shoot I figure I can do what the gun can do and have proven it at 50 yard ( rimfire) matches and
1000 yard f-class with lesser equipment ( yeah I’m bragging ha ! )

Mine started in basic training. The first time at the range after a few shots to see where it hit, I blew about a 1 or so hole in the silhouette. The TI and range master we quite surprised. Got to my permanent station and got on the shooting team. Main reason was I got pretty much unlimited range time and a specific M16. Being USAF you generally did not get range time unless you were overseas or a cop.

 

[jps2486]

I agree Trucker.... the concept of diminishing returns applies to most things, and certainly to airguns.

What makes diminishing returns for air rifles even more interesting is that many/most of the manufacturers don't make their own barrels - and that is the key component that determines the ultimate accuracy achievable with the rifle. So a manufacturer like Daystate is somewhat dependent on their barrel supplier (Lothar Walther in Daystate's case) regarding the ultimate performance that can we achieved with their various rifle platforms.

As has been discussed on these forums many times, the end consumer is somewhat dependent on the "barrel lottery" - i.e. receiving a barrel on their particular rifle that happens to be above or well above average in the "batch" of barrels installed on that particular rifle. Certainly the barrels used in competitions by "Team Daystate" have likely gone through a more rigorous "screening process" than the barrels installed on regular "production line" rifles.

Another key component where a manufacturer can really differentiate their "premium" priced air rifles is the trigger. Definitely seems that certain brands give you more for your money when it comes to triggers.

Looking at a Blackwolf from a layman's perspective, lets guess the following component costs:
Barrel: $200 sourced from LW
Regulator: $85 sourced from Huma
Carbon Bottle: $100 sourced from Inocom
Stock: $250 sourced from Minelli
Moderator: $100 sourced from Huggett

With these costs I'm assuming that Daystate is getting some volume discounts from their suppliers... all these components are available to any manufacturer - not just unique to Daystate.

Looking at it this way, Daystate is asking for $1,750+ for their action, trigger and barrel shroud with shroud carrier. Even assuming that they are recouping R&D costs, their asking price seems a bit elevated. And it's likely that they reused some of the R&D invested in their Ghost platform on the Blackwolf.

I'm impressed with the innovation that Daystate brought to our hobby with their electronic platforms. I currently own 3 Daystates. They are all mechanical with the exception of an electronic trigger on my Renegade HP (great trigger). Their slingshot hammer is very cool - and seems to give great efficiency and consistency.

However, I was a bit surprised by the very high price point of the Blackwolf - as it's an all-mechanical platform. It seems that Daystate has established itself as a "premium" brand - and commands premium pricing.

To summarize my "thinking out loud" post, the traditional "law of diminishing returns" as applied to top-of-the-line air rifles may not even give you that small additional performance for significantly more money - because of the high dependance on the performance of each individual barrel - which is unique to each barrel.

-Ed

Do the English have to pay tariffs to the Germans, Italians and Koreans?

 

[Justaguy]

No one said you cannot buy one. It is a value proposition.

If you want to buy it because you like it then that may be the worth $2,000. I can afford the most expensive air gun out there. The problem is what are you getting for an additional $2,000 for the Black Wolf? I honestly cannot define anything on an air gun worth an additional $2,000 over a Zelos/M60B.

Unless you are a competitive shooter. Then the very small functional difference could be decisive.

The statement was about owning the "finer things" and I'd love to know what those are in regard to air guns.

I can definitely define the finer things in regard to many products. Properly stored and aged William-Selyem and Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir would be a good example. Wines made by two of the best winemakers in the US Bob Cabral (formerly) and Thomas Rivers Brown. Quality, consistency and taste are only matched by a handful of others like Kosta-Brown and Anthill Farms. And you pay for that.

This comment sums up this debate.... WINE? Really?
Wine may be a finer thing to YOU, but I will take a Corona with lime over ANY fermented grape juice, every day of the week!
What has value to YOU.... has absolutely NO value to me.

 

[Ratzy]

This comment sums up this debate.... WINE? Really?
Wine may be a finer thing to YOU, but I will take a Corona with lime over ANY fermented grape juice, every day of the week!
What has value to YOU.... has absolutely NO value to me.

*sigh*
It is called an example of something that has defined and differentiated levels from basic to premium. It did not have to be wine. It could be autos, roll arm couches or office chairs.

Also if your goto is Corona you probably should stay away from anything requiring functioning taste buds to enjoy.

 

[Franklink]

*sigh*
It is called an example of something that has defined and differentiated levels from basic to premium.

Yes!!! You finally got it.

THIS is why some airguns cost more than others.

 

[Ratzy]

Yes!!! You finally got it.

THIS is why some airguns cost more than others.

That whooshing sound you heard was missing the word defined. Now you need to go back and read for comprehension what that means in respect to an air gun.

But you won't because you are invested in your rationalizations and anything contrary is anathema.

 

[dan_house]

"Corona"....

could be worse.... he could have appended that with "Lite"

 

[Ratzy]

"Corona"....

could be worse.... he could have appended that with "Lite"

*shudder*
Get thee behind me Satan.

 

[Trucker3573]

Not a Corona fan but I agree with him. I’d take it over any nasty arse wine.

 

[Ratzy]

Not a Corona fan but I agree with him. I’d take it over any nasty arse wine.

I can't count the number of people that have told me that they do not like wine. I've had them taste a properly aged bottle of good wine and most of the time it is "that tastes pretty good". Almost all of them have only ever had trash wines.

But there are people, like my brother, it does not matter how good the wine. They hate it.

Then there is the horror of bitter nasty IPA beer. Give me a proper Belgian ale any day

 

[Trucker3573]

I can't count the number of people that have told me that they do not like wine. I've had them taste a properly aged bottle of good wine and most of the time it is "that tastes pretty good". Almost all of them have only ever had trash wines.

But there are people, like my brother, it does not matter how good the wine. They hate it.

Then there is the horror of bitter nasty IPA beer. Give me a proper Belgian ale any day

Gosh I hate ipa. My wife loves them and wine too. Maybe I haven’t tasted a good one. I haven’t liked any I’ve had at all and anymore I have just given up and won’t give them a chance.

 

[Ratzy]

Gosh I hate ipa. My wife loves them and wine too. Maybe I haven’t tasted a good one. I haven’t liked any I’ve had at all and anymore I have just given up and won’t give them a chance.

You have the bitter gene.
People that cannot stand anything bitter

 

[WoodWelder]

Is there a such thing as a bad beer? I've never had one yet. Some are just better than others such as Stout and Porters are the best by far!

Red wine? Only if enjoyed with a Prime or AAA beef......Now we're talking!

 

[ChickenDumpling]

There isn't a lot of difference, but there is a lot of folks who would like to think so. They want to sell air rifles, and they want you to want them. They are happy to take whatever you think you want to pay. Justify it, spend it. Enjoy 'em and hope you got what you wanted.