Black wolf prices

[EPG]

These arguments can extentd to anything. Finer automobiles… I paid 2800 bucks for an 08 Honda Civic over 3.5 years ago. It had 140k on it has 220k on it now. Haven’t done a thing except tires, plugs and coil packs to it. Runs like a champ. Best 2800 bucks I ever spent in my life. Does the exact same thing as any vehicle. Gets my butt back and forth to work trouble free. Where is excess there? A 5k car? I only needed a 3k car ? It’s a completely subjective concept in someone’s mind that varies depending on the person and what type of item we are talking about. To me the BW is too much for what you get. Who am I or anyone else to judge others that feel differently?

I agree Trucker.... the concept of diminishing returns applies to most things, and certainly to airguns.

What makes diminishing returns for air rifles even more interesting is that many/most of the manufacturers don't make their own barrels - and that is the key component that determines the ultimate accuracy achievable with the rifle. So a manufacturer like Daystate is somewhat dependent on their barrel supplier (Lothar Walther in Daystate's case) regarding the ultimate performance that can we achieved with their various rifle platforms.

As has been discussed on these forums many times, the end consumer is somewhat dependent on the "barrel lottery" - i.e. receiving a barrel on their particular rifle that happens to be above or well above average in the "batch" of barrels installed on that particular rifle. Certainly the barrels used in competitions by "Team Daystate" have likely gone through a more rigorous "screening process" than the barrels installed on regular "production line" rifles.

Another key component where a manufacturer can really differentiate their "premium" priced air rifles is the trigger. Definitely seems that certain brands give you more for your money when it comes to triggers.

Looking at a Blackwolf from a layman's perspective, lets guess the following component costs:
Barrel: $200 sourced from LW
Regulator: $85 sourced from Huma
Carbon Bottle: $100 sourced from Inocom
Stock: $250 sourced from Minelli
Moderator: $100 sourced from Huggett

With these costs I'm assuming that Daystate is getting some volume discounts from their suppliers... all these components are available to any manufacturer - not just unique to Daystate.

Looking at it this way, Daystate is asking for $1,750+ for their action, trigger and barrel shroud with shroud carrier. Even assuming that they are recouping R&D costs, their asking price seems a bit elevated. And it's likely that they reused some of the R&D invested in their Ghost platform on the Blackwolf.

I'm impressed with the innovation that Daystate brought to our hobby with their electronic platforms. I currently own 3 Daystates. They are all mechanical with the exception of an electronic trigger on my Renegade HP (great trigger). Their slingshot hammer is very cool - and seems to give great efficiency and consistency.

However, I was a bit surprised by the very high price point of the Blackwolf - as it's an all-mechanical platform. It seems that Daystate has established itself as a "premium" brand - and commands premium pricing.

To summarize my "thinking out loud" post, the traditional "law of diminishing returns" as applied to top-of-the-line air rifles may not even give you that small additional performance for significantly more money - because of the high dependance on the performance of each individual barrel - which is unique to each barrel.

-Ed

 

[Franklink]

The inherent or even perceived monetary value of anything is exactly what someone is willing to pay for it.

Not just in airguns, but generally, in modern consumerism based markets, we're often paying for the name. Usually that name is accompanied by higher quality, because the 'brand" wants to maintain that implied and perceived value, ie you get what you pay for.

Oakley sunglasses for example, are gonna cost 10-15x more than their Walmart or gas station counterparts. And those Oakley sunglasses are inarguably higher equality and will last longer. And the big kicker ...the Oakley's have product support. The Oakley's aren't a fly by night, flash in the pan company where parts and support will evaporate as soon as the importers Conexs from China are empty. So, part of pricing is long-term support.

Personally? Yeah, when airguns are in the $3k + range, they're out of MY personal comfort level. But that doesn't mean they're out of other individuals comfort levels.

But I'm also a basic trim level vehicle kind of guy, and can't fathom doubling the cost of a new truck with what I personally see as unnecessary add-ons.

 

[kwaping]

It's almost as if airgun shooters are actual people with individual preferences and budgets. Crazy.

But seriously, it feels like this topic has run its course and we are beating a dead horse now. People have strong opinions on everything these days and aren't likely to change their minds.

 

[Ratzy]

I’m probably not going to get a BW because, for me, price is just ridiculous even for top of the line. However, if I somehow get to shoot one and really “like” it for whatever reason, I may just buy it anyway. The point made by others is not that the BW would be good bang for your buck for the average backyard plinker that only cares about getting a pellet from A to B over 40 yards. The point is that if someone likes it for its edge as to quality, fit and finish, feel, form factor or simplicity of adjustments and can afford it, why shouldn’t they buy it even if they just want to punch paper at 40. This applies to all things in live. A 2k bottle of whisky or wine is probably not “worth” the 1.9k over a $100 bottle from a bang for your buck perspective. But why not if you like it and can afford it? If you don’t that’s fine, too.

No one said you cannot buy one. It is a value proposition.

If you want to buy it because you like it then that may be the worth $2,000. I can afford the most expensive air gun out there. The problem is what are you getting for an additional $2,000 for the Black Wolf? I honestly cannot define anything on an air gun worth an additional $2,000 over a Zelos/M60B.

Unless you are a competitive shooter. Then the very small functional difference could be decisive.

The statement was about owning the "finer things" and I'd love to know what those are in regard to air guns.

I can definitely define the finer things in regard to many products. Properly stored and aged William-Selyem and Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir would be a good example. Wines made by two of the best winemakers in the US Bob Cabral (formerly) and Thomas Rivers Brown. Quality, consistency and taste are only matched by a handful of others like Kosta-Brown and Anthill Farms. And you pay for that.

 

[Centercut]

Without starting a big dung show, as everyone knows, Mike knows a real shooting competition vs a product showcase/carnival.

Do we really need to put down 100Y BR comps like RMAC, EBR and PAC. To each his own, but really? Different strokes for different folks.
I’m pretty sure everyone doesn’t know, especially the 200 shooters that show up at those comps.

 

[Franklink]

No one said you cannot buy one. It is a value proposition.

If you want to buy it because you like it then that may be the worth $2,000. I can afford the most expensive air gun out there. The problem is what are you getting for an additional $2,000 for the Black Wolf? I honestly cannot define anything on an air gun worth an additional $2,000 over a Zelos/M60B.

Unless you are a competitive shooter. Then the very small functional difference could be decisive.

The statement was about owning the "finer things" and I'd love to know what those are in regard to air guns.

I can definitely define the finer things in regard to many products. Properly stored and aged William-Selyem and Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir would be a good example. Wines made by two of the best winemakers in the US Bob Cabral (formerly) and Thomas Rivers Brown. Quality, consistency and taste are only matched by a handful of others like Kosta-Brown and Anthill Farms. And you pay for that.

Sounds like you have finer taste in wine than in airguns.

I've shot (and own/owned) cheap airguns, and I've shot (and own/owned) very expensive ones...for those of us that can appreciate the difference, a difference does indeed exist. Much like your wine example.

 

[blackdog899]

No one said you cannot buy one. It is a value proposition.

If you want to buy it because you like it then that may be the worth $2,000. I can afford the most expensive air gun out there. The problem is what are you getting for an additional $2,000 for the Black Wolf? I honestly cannot define anything on an air gun worth an additional $2,000 over a Zelos/M60B.

Unless you are a competitive shooter. Then the very small functional difference could be decisive.

The statement was about owning the "finer things" and I'd love to know what those are in regard to air guns.

I can definitely define the finer things in regard to many products. Properly stored and aged William-Selyem and Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir would be a good example. Wines made by two of the best winemakers in the US Bob Cabral (formerly) and Thomas Rivers Brown. Quality, consistency and taste are only matched by a handful of others like Kosta-Brown and Anthill Farms. And you pay for that.

Ratsy, I’m usually in a similar mind but you lost me on the wine haaa..
my $12 bottles of dry red whatever will have to do and I dare say expensive
wine would be a waste on me
Mike

 

[cavedweller]

So, you imagine that taking something, for free, I can sell for a ridiculous amount of money due to "consumer excess" over taking something of lower cash value is a "gotcha"?

Maybe look up the definition of "consumer excess" would help.

Now, explain what defines a "finer thing" about air guns. What specifically makes the Black Wolf worth $2,000 more than an M60B or Throne 2 or Condor.

Beauty like value, has always been in the eye of the beholder and spender... what one values in life is what "one" values in life.
Each of us is different and there are some who don't concern themselves with pennies, nickels and dimes or $5400.00 airguns... to each their own... their moolah... their choice.

if you think the Black wolf is pricey: https://nordicmarksman.com/anschutz-9015-one-3p-universal-gripm/

 

[IKnowNutin]

I don't own and haven't fired a Daystate yet. I've got several BRK's, a RAW, a Talon SS, an Aircuda Max, a Katran, a Steyr, several L2's a Taipan, a Lelya 2.0 and a Matador. I would like to try a Daystate someday but am not willing to buy one new. The used market is a great place to experiment more economically for me.

Regardless, the finer things in my collection are defined by their ergonomics, consistency, trigger, ease of loading and reliability. All subject to change as my journey in the air rifle world continues. The cost does seem to follow the quality. The Steyr, RAW, Lelya, Taipan and Ghost are finer things to me. The bottom of the barrel is the cheap Aircuda. That thing shot damn near sideways just by screwing a plastic Buckrail moderator onto it. Horrible trigger. Just cycling the action of the RAW and BRK compared to Aircuda is a "finer thing" and worth it....to me.

I'm sure glad I don't have to have someone dictate to me what the finer things should be and what is shamefully excessive. Kommie-fornia dreaming.

 

[Trucker3573]

Let’s not forget that daystate pricing makes no sense anyway. The ghost is an example. Short barrel vs hp …same price but the shorter barrel to buy in itself significantly cheaper. DW smart vs AW smart (actually I think in general the AW vs DW the pricing is about the same). Same price but you get a nice laminated stock with the AW. DW bronze…significantly more expensive than black…for a color. It makes no sense. They have the name to back it all up. All these differences within their models will appeal to different people and they are willing to pay it.

 

[cavedweller]

Let’s not forget that daystate pricing makes no sense anyway. The ghost is an example. Short barrel vs hp …same price but the shorter barrel to buy in itself significantly cheaper. DW smart vs AW smart (actually I think in general the AW vs DW the pricing is about the same). Same price but you get a nice laminated stock with the AW. DW bronze…significantly more expensive than black…for a color. It makes no sense. They have the name to back it all up. All these differences within their models will appeal to different people and they are willing to pay it.

Or: https://nordicmarksman.com/anschutz-9015-one-3p-universal-gripm/

 

[JW.]

Hoooooleeeeepoop, did someone say $4100 for an off the shelf airgun.
LMAO, there’s a sucker born every minute I guess.
Or maybe the market will correct them at some point, either way, not a good look IMO.

I'd buy a Thomas over a Daystate considering the price...

 

[ctshooter]

Ratsy, I’m usually in a similar mind but you lost me on the wine haaa..
my $12 bottles of dry red whatever will have to do and I dare say expensive
wine would be a waste on me
Mike

Your comment, as an analogy to airguns, may summarize things the best. Like wine there are those who will appreciate the refinements of a $2K + airgun and there are those who will not. For some a gun is a gun is a gun - as long as it shoots true they do not care. Others may be more discerning in their taste. Neither is right, nor is either wrong. Just preference and IMO not worth bashing up the $$ chain or down. One should shoot what makes then happy and enjoy the sport.

When I got seriously back into the hobby in 2016/2017 FX was running as the most expensive airguns and IIRC Daystate was near neck and neck. Now FX has managed to keep their base pricing around the $2K mark whereas Daystate has bumped there's up near $4k.

YMMV

 

[cavedweller]

No one said you cannot buy one. It is a value proposition.

If you want to buy it because you like it then that may be the worth $2,000. I can afford the most expensive air gun out there. The problem is what are you getting for an additional $2,000 for the Black Wolf? I honestly cannot define anything on an air gun worth an additional $2,000 over a Zelos/M60B.

Unless you are a competitive shooter. Then the very small functional difference could be decisive.

The statement was about owning the "finer things" and I'd love to know what those are in regard to air guns.

I can definitely define the finer things in regard to many products. Properly stored and aged William-Selyem and Rivers-Marie Pinot Noir would be a good example. Wines made by two of the best winemakers in the US Bob Cabral (formerly) and Thomas Rivers Brown. Quality, consistency and taste are only matched by a handful of others like Kosta-Brown and Anthill Farms. And you pay for that.

But once consumed the wine is gone and only the memory of the taste remains… I prefer hardware that I can continue to make new memories with… but that’s just me.

 

[cavedweller]

I'd buy a Thomas over a Daystate considering the price...

Buy both… but one will take a very long time to get

 

[Ratzy]

Sounds like you have finer taste in wine than in airguns.

I've shot (and own/owned) cheap airguns, and I've shot (and own/owned) very expensive ones...for those of us that can appreciate the difference, a difference does indeed exist. Much like your wine example.

Not the point.

The points being

"Finer things" claim was defined simply by the cost and not by some feature or function. There is nothing about air guns that can be defined as "finer things" and the wine being an example of something that has a definable characteristics that are "finer things".

Guns like Black Wolf or Impact are better at putting a pellet down range in a tighter group. That group is only marginally better than the current crop of sub $1,000 guns like the M60B/Zelos or Throne 2. A 1/4 inch improvement in groups costs $2,000. But that 1/4 inch improvement requires skills that few people actually have. Unless you are a competitive shooter and/or practice your form constantly that 1/4 inch tighter group most likely does not exist.

Then there is the AirForce Condor. Been around for decades. Same issue as above, almost as accurate as guns costing 2,000 more. All without needing to have to "tune" anything beyond pellet weights and a simple hammer spring preload adjustment. Almost impossible to break, as simple a design as exists and modification only takes a few minutes.

What do you get for that $2,000 extra?

 

[Ratzy]

Let’s not forget that daystate pricing makes no sense anyway. The ghost is an example. Short barrel vs hp …same price but the shorter barrel to buy in itself significantly cheaper. DW smart vs AW smart (actually I think in general the AW vs DW the pricing is about the same). Same price but you get a nice laminated stock with the AW. DW bronze…significantly more expensive than black…for a color. It makes no sense. They have the name to back it all up. All these differences within their models will appeal to different people and they are willing to pay it.

You sit down and write what you get for those guns vs what you get for sub $2,000, sub $1,000 or used in those categories.

Not a lot of difference.

 

[Ratzy]

But once consumed the wine is gone and only the memory of the taste remains… I prefer hardware that I can continue to make new memories with… but that’s just me.

Was trying to explain that "finer things" have definable features or functions. Because i asked a couple times for those definitions with regard to Air Guns and the only one expressed was price, aka "consumer excess" or "keeping up with the joneses"

The Rolling Stones pretty much covered consumer excess in 1965 "Satisfaction"

"When I'm watching my TV
And that man comes on to tell me
How white my shirts can be
Well he can't be a man 'cause he doesn't smoke the same cigarettes as me"

 

[Ratzy]

Beauty like value, has always been in the eye of the beholder and spender... what one values in life is what "one" values in life.
Each of us is different and there are some who don't concern themselves with pennies, nickels and dimes or $5400.00 airguns... to each their own... their moolah... their choice.

if you think the Black wolf is pricey: https://nordicmarksman.com/anschutz-9015-one-3p-universal-gripm/

I've clearly stated that if you are a competitive shooter then the value proposition does not apply. If that is what it takes, in addition to your skills, to win then that is what you need. That is specifically for what that gun is designed. Not applicable to this discussion.

My point has always been that the 90% that are not competitive shooters buying guns of the $2,500 or more price range does not make sense.

Frankly, most of that 90% either never had or no longer have (like me) the skills to take advantage of the incremental improvement those guns provide in accuracy and consistency. Keeping those skills takes a lot of time, effort and money. Life has a nasty habit of getting in the way of staying on top of those skills.

Air guns provide a way to keep some of those skill from complete atrophy. You dont have to go to the !@#$% range...

 

[rigbymauser]

The price for brainstorming and development, marketing, setting up QC system and control plans, new production and assembly system, teaching co workers, contracts with subcontractors to secure supplychain etc etc. All these things doesn`t do them by them self. Some humans has to be paid to do all these things. And thats before any gun has even left the factory. All this has to added to the gun.

To compare the Mauser factory in Oberndorf had over 450 production inspections on their K98 before leaving the factory for combat. Today even these guns were made in millions they are still good and is attractive to collectors if in prime condition.

I have seen threads with over 20 year old Daystates because they work and are accurate. They are made from fairly HQ components and has a timesless design. Today they still keep a price and the secondhand marked.