This forum is privately owned. In that light, the owner can create any rule he wishes. Currently the forum rule on prohibiting moderator construction is out of order. This is now especially true with the Alphabet org silencer rule changes. If you have followed the debate between moderator3 and nobody1 and his leaving the forum over it, you will understand this unfortunate situation. The use of moderators has never been illegal on air guns. As the use of air guns is mostly in urban environments, moderators play a very important part of their use. Add to that the current popularity of the GK1 pistol, their use is almost mandatory. I have been designing and building moderators for many years. The construction methodology and materials used along with their effectiveness is very much in the interest of every air gunner. Nobody1 has been an important contributor to this forum and as a moderator constructor and an air gunner of many years, I agree very much to his position. The owner is doing a great disservice to the air gunning public and the air gun industry by his moderator position. I urge the forum owner to eliminate his restriction on this subject. Ultimately, as a forum member, all we can do is vote with our feet. Your call!
Forum moderator enforced rules
- Thread starter steve-l
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Andy Grove - "Only the paranoid survive!"
I also would like to restore the open air gun moderator discussions as well. I have learned a lot about the topic from them. However I also understand sometimes the risk / reward ratio combined with being prudent would lead one to the conclusion that having open discussions on the topic can bring the wrong type of attention to not only the forum owner but its members too.
Therefore I respect the owners decision to ban the topic. Just may have saved someone from legal costs and trouble.
I also would like to restore the open air gun moderator discussions as well. I have learned a lot about the topic from them. However I also understand sometimes the risk / reward ratio combined with being prudent would lead one to the conclusion that having open discussions on the topic can bring the wrong type of attention to not only the forum owner but its members too.
Therefore I respect the owners decision to ban the topic. Just may have saved someone from legal costs and trouble.
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Perhaps you are not up to speed on the Alphabet org's position on moderators as it is no longer pursuing suppressor violations since their policy has changed with the new administration. Of course their opposition was always with powder burners anyway, never air guns. It is now the correct time to change this forum's restriction as well.
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Forgive my ignorance. Im so new to the community I haven't explored much of the forums. I'm glad I stumbled upon this thread this morning. Until this point I wasn't aware that discussing the design and/or construction of moderators was prohibited. I can understand the reluctance to having an open air discussion about this topic. Having said that, I disagree with banning the topic all together. I could explain my reasoning, but I dont see the point of doing so. I can no more influence the owner to change there mind then I can influence someone to go make something simply from a discussion.
If the topic is prohibited why do I see moderator advertisements on the home page? Why even allow a sponsor to advertise moderators at all?
If the topic is prohibited why do I see moderator advertisements on the home page? Why even allow a sponsor to advertise moderators at all?
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I have no foot in this game, but's here's an opinion nevertheless.
A "position" on moderators is much different than a change in "laws". I do not see AGN making a change until legal changes have been made at the Federal level. And even at that, not until a long cooling off period of those changes.
You don't live in the US and thus may not be aware how screwed up our legal system is. Too many lawyers and sue sue sue everything to death. You think Michael wants to get sued just for taking a chance? As far as I know AGN is not a LLC or LLP so as an owner he takes on a lot of risk with what people do with what is said on this forum. If someone took moderator building knowledge from here, used it to build something for a firearm, that firearm was used in a crime - it could circle back and literally F*** his world. Honestly - is it worth the risk for the maybe 3 to 4 enthusiasts? I think not.
And for nobody1 to leave the forum over this silly pettiness - well that's his loss.
Hopefully this thread gets shutdown and locked real quick. @Moderator3
A "position" on moderators is much different than a change in "laws". I do not see AGN making a change until legal changes have been made at the Federal level. And even at that, not until a long cooling off period of those changes.
You don't live in the US and thus may not be aware how screwed up our legal system is. Too many lawyers and sue sue sue everything to death. You think Michael wants to get sued just for taking a chance? As far as I know AGN is not a LLC or LLP so as an owner he takes on a lot of risk with what people do with what is said on this forum. If someone took moderator building knowledge from here, used it to build something for a firearm, that firearm was used in a crime - it could circle back and literally F*** his world. Honestly - is it worth the risk for the maybe 3 to 4 enthusiasts? I think not.
And for nobody1 to leave the forum over this silly pettiness - well that's his loss.
Hopefully this thread gets shutdown and locked real quick. @Moderator3
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What´s more it´s also very much a matter of where in the world you´re at.
Here in Europe the use of moderators on airguns is rarely even legislated, at all.
Powder burners, yes. Airguns not so much and i can´t but agree on your opinions. An airgun is indeed very often used where powder burners are not, for viable reasons. Often within city limits, why noise IS an issue to many (if not most).
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Strange rule! Can you point me to the explanation for it? Surely as air rifle silencers/moderators in the US are freely available to buy such as the Donny range I don't see how it's a contentious subject, as air rifle silencers are not suitable for powder burners, unlike us in the UK who are limited to 12 ft lbs, yet we can freely buy or make silencers/moderators, just seems a bit strange, but then the forum owner can set any rules they like, and conversely we are not allowed to post about tuning/power adjustment on the UK forums that are also privately owned
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Your answer is income generation. Advertising is what keeps this forum afloat. What is good for the Goose is not necessarily good for the Gander!
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I believe it is still illegal to build without a permit , what ever the use . But i have not read the current Federal standing on this subject .
I do Remember the part where the Federal laws say " able to be modified it fit on firearm or even if it destructs in one use . "
I do Remember the part where the Federal laws say " able to be modified it fit on firearm or even if it destructs in one use . "
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Not everyone using the Forum lives in the united states. Also even if you live in the United States there may be states and local laws that may prohibit the use or ownership of and airgun moderator. Amazon takes such a cautious approach as well not shipping many items to some states even though it is not illegal. I've seen enough examples of an overzealous da causing problems for innocent people. No use giving them more reasons!
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I think that is a good question. I for one would love to hear the owner's reasoning. I suspect it was his fear of being complicit in breaking the Alphabet org's rules of using air gun silencers on powder burners. This is what happened to DonnyFL. The Alphabet org forced DonnyFL to stop selling moderators in the USA for just that reason. Since the beginning of the new administration. the Alphabet org's policies have changed significantly. Very large personnel and management changes have occurred there.
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I've been glancing through some of the tech focused forums (PCP, Big Bore) for years and have not seen any evidence of a change in the discussions of sound moderators (LDCs, silencers etc.) in those forums. Many model lines market their products in part based on the effectiveness of internal sound baffles in shrouded barrels.
I expect (not positive but it makes sense to me) that the concerns of AGN forums' management are focused on not being associated with promoting a private individual's manufacture of sound reduction devices or setting up the sale of their personally produced moderators through the forums.
Even though the AGN forums serve an international community of air gun enthusiasts, it still strikes me as a US-centric design where some discussion topics, like paintball sports or the intentional dieseling of springers etc., are limited or restricted altogether. Luckily there are alternate internet forums with fewer restrictions on topical content for people who want a deeper dive into those topics.
I've occasionally ended up posting technical air gun results on alternate forums because the topic was not allowed for discussion here on AGN forums. I didn't know that until after I'd made some posts which were removed, with a reasonable explanation of forum posting guidelines, by AGN forum moderators.
Which still leaves me wondering. What's exactly is going on here now with postings about moderators (the ones with baffles, not the forum moderators) that is different from the way it's been handled previously?
JP
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It never was illegal to build a silencer. It was illegal to sell silencers without a permit. It was also illegal to own a silencer without an Alphabet org license. All of those reasons only applied to powder burners, never air guns. It was always possible to get a license. All you had to do is do was the paperwork and pay the levied tax, just like alcohol.
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Probably explains why a lot of manufactures are producing a lot of with shrouds and internal sound baffling, which will be firmly aimed at the US market, which I guess will be aimed at circumventing state laws regarding suppressors.
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IF shrouds were not considered sound deadening devises , PB manufactures would be building already .
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I have a feeling that online AGN classified sales of moderators, were cutting into "paying" advertisers profit margins and or overall sales. But as you mentioned, this is a private forum so the rules are the rules and if i want to enjoy AGN i will play by the rules.
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This is my first time hearing/reading about the LDC/Moderators/Silencer "thing". I have one "L,M,orS" on every airgun I have. And one for .22 LR. I get very frustrated with those that assume as adults , we should or shouldn't mention / discuss something that is perfectly legal in most areas of this great country, which is now under the leadership of just the right person to spin it around in the right direction .It is now different because it NEEDS to be different like never in a long time.( off the soap box now, forgive me
) There are so many shooters of ALL gun types using these items legally that it shouldn't be a subject to be whispered about behind closed doors( that's what I feel from this). If this is taken as forbidden / too outspoken for anyone here , I'll gladly zip it & fade away. It's been mostly nice & informative here.
) There are so many shooters of ALL gun types using these items legally that it shouldn't be a subject to be whispered about behind closed doors( that's what I feel from this). If this is taken as forbidden / too outspoken for anyone here , I'll gladly zip it & fade away. It's been mostly nice & informative here.Upvote 0
Poking the bear is not always the best plan! There's a lot you don't understand about living in US. I see you mentioned shooting in city limits and urban areas that are totally restricted here in the states!
It is illegal to even discharge an air rifle in most cities moderated or not! I understand your point completely but this forum is based here and things get sticky very quickly if someone interpreted a law differently than you! It unfortunate but the way it is here!
It is illegal to even discharge an air rifle in most cities moderated or not! I understand your point completely but this forum is based here and things get sticky very quickly if someone interpreted a law differently than you! It unfortunate but the way it is here!
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That's not a bad thing. Hanging a bob weight on the end of a barrel causes lots of unrelated to sound issues. especially with FX guns and the like that use light gauge tubes for barrels. That extra weight stresses the barrel to receiver mount and causes barrel bend. All of which causes POI shifts and inaccuracy. Furthermore,, it extends the overall length and can obscure iron sights. The biggest issue though is barrel to moderator alignment because almost all the moderators mount to the shroud, not the barrel. There is no proper alignment register, misalignment is very common causing clipping. It is the primary reason commercial moderator bores are way too large in relation to the barrel diameter.
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What policy change are you referring to? There was an act (hpa) that was added to the budget reconciliation bill that has been removed by the parliamentarian for supposedly not meeting the Byrd rule. (actually being a tax even thought it in fact is a tax) It remains to be seen whether or not the language for the hpa will be put back in prior to being voted on but that would mean either Thune or Vance would have to override what she removed from the bill and Thune said previously he would let her destroy what she wanted.
So what policy change are you referring to? If you have found one please link it.
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