N/A Moisture in PCP airguns

New to pcps early last year. Living southwest VA, direct filling with a GX CS4 by itself got water in my gun. Regulator went wonky after a few months and had a table spoon or more of water in air tube when disassembled. Following everything on here I've slowly built to overkill, if there's really such a thing. Condolencing filters, big blue with absorbent then color changing silica beads, then big gold with molecular sieve, with air path feeding against gravity. Fast forward a year, just had to replace valve pin and gun was bone dry.
You'll know far more than me, I've simply followed the advice and can a test that it works.

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so by that logic there is no reason compressor need filters to fill scuba tanks
I don't understand the strawman "by that logic". I am simply reporting my experience with compressors and service.


By what logic did I claim that no filters are needed or are not needed? That question appears to be open at this point, appears to be quite subjective, do you agree?

I did not fill SCUBA tanks with any of my (5) Yong Heng/clones, my New Warrior, CS3 or Nouge. I did fill SCBA tanks with my Yong Hengs and clones, for clarity.
 
New to pcps early last year. Living southwest VA, direct filling with a GX CS4 by itself got water in my gun. Regulator went wonky after a few months and had a table spoon or more of water in air tube when disassembled. Following everything on here I've slowly built to overkill, if there's really such a thing. Condolencing filters, big blue with absorbent then color changing silica beads, then big gold with molecular sieve, with air path feeding against gravity. Fast forward a year, just had to replace valve pin and gun was bone dry.
You'll know far more than me, I've simply followed the advice and can a test that it works.

View attachment 568149
"Regulator went wonky after a few months and had a table spoon or more of water in air tube when disassembled.".

That would grab my attention and would likely follow a similar path. I'm not certain that it is germaine but what is the typical temperature and ambient humidity where you are filling? It's simply a question out of interest.

This area is typically 70 F and 50% RH, FWIW.
 
"Regulator went wonky after a few months and had a table spoon or more of water in air tube when disassembled.".

That would grab my attention and would likely follow a similar path. I'm not certain that it is germaine but what is the typical temperature and ambient humidity where you are filling? It's simply a question out of interest.

This area is typically 70 F and 50% RH, FWIW.
I'm most likely to be out at my range in the early mornings when the dew is still on the ground and dew points are high. No neighbors anywhere close, so I can be shooting at sunrise. But in the Blue Ridge mountains of Virginia, so there's a haze in the air all summer. Not really one to pay attention to actually numbers.
 
And that draining removes water demonstrates that compressing the air causes water to drop out of the air?

The question, seems to be what you posed: Since compressing air removes water from the air, is the remaining water an issue, and how should we respond?

In my case, I find no water signs in my guns, despite not adding desiccants, additional filters, etc, so it appears unwise to add the additional compexity and/or additional volume requiring pressurizing during each fill cycle.
If you haven’t had issues this far…ur probably more lucky than anything else
 
If you haven’t had issues this far…ur probably more lucky than anything else
If you have had issues this far...ur probably more unlucky than anything else?

I don't understand what you are saying?

Isn't this simply a physics issue, the outcomes of which depend on the conditions? If not, then there would need to be magic involved, correct?

If it is simply a physics issue, the outcomes of which depend on the conditions, and two individuals are experiencing different results, then there must be some unreported/not-considered aspects that differentiate the two outcomes, correct?

On those premises, perhaps we can identify what are the "unreported/not-considered aspects that differentiate the two outcomes"?

BTW, I have several trades qualifictions, and am a Power Engineer, so I have some acquaintence with the physics involved, but I do not claim to understand why some report water issues, while others do not. That is the point of my interest.
 
If you have had issues this far...ur probably more unlucky than anything else?

I don't understand what you are saying?

Isn't this simply a physics issue, the outcomes of which depend on the conditions? If not, then there would need to be magic involved, correct?

If it is simply a physics issue, the outcomes of which depend on the conditions, and two individuals are experiencing different results, then there must be some unreported/not-considered aspects that differentiate the two outcomes, correct?

On those premises, perhaps we can identify what are the "unreported/not-considered aspects that differentiate the two outcomes"?

BTW, I have several trades qualifictions, and am a Power Engineer, so I have some acquaintence with the physics involved, but I do not claim to understand why some report water issues, while others do not. That is the point of my interest.
Because compressing air doesn’t remove moisture. The air is heated, allowing it to carry more moisture. Once cooled it condenses into liquid form. The volume of moisture is retained, but compressed into a much smaller space.

There is no way around that…
 
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Because compressing air doesn’t remove moisture. The air is heated, allowing it to carry more moisture. Once cooled it condenses into liquid form. The volume of moisture is retained, but compressed into a much smaller space.

There is no way around that...
Close, but not quite - plus calling it "moisture" is kind of confusing in itself, as we really need to differentiate it into the two phases we deal with here: gaseous or liquid.

First, lets accept two basic facts of the physics:
1) We draw air into the compressor, and if we are doing it with any degree of care, that air will contain no liquid water, but a variable amount of water as vapor, evaporated into the ambient air.
2) The the air that is drawn in for compression will carry enough water vapor in it such that when we are done compressing the air into whatever reservoir we are using (gun or tank), and that air charge temperature has returned to ambient, the final compressed air charge will not be able to "hold" the same amount of water molecules as vapor as before compression, and the rest of the the water molecules (most of them, in fact) will have condensed out to liquid water.

(Note: if you can't accept those two conditions, re-read them, think about it more, and if you still can't then do some meaningful research)

The real question becomes one of "where is the liquid water?"

Since the compression is not adiabatic and occurs in multiple stages with heat losses between them, the air charge won't be able to even carry all the water as a vapor out through compression - some will condense inside the compressor. That is good news for us as it is less to deal with afterwards. We just vent it out - and thus there absolutely be less "moisture" in the air after compression than before, as not all of it will get all the way through the compressor.

In fact, the more we can get to condense out before it gets to the reservoir the better. If we could get the air charge back to ambient before the reservoir (or even better, below ambient) then our "water problem" would likely be solved for us without any "filter" in the path. Unfortunately that is not going to happen unless we go back to a hand pump (or something equally as slow). BTW, @Normkel this is really the missing link you are looking for - air charge temperature.

I won't go much further with this, as the rest of the story was already written in the earlier posts #34 and #35. But air charge temperature is the key to all of this - it defines how much water vapor is still in the air, as that air is at 100% humidity from compression onward. Bottom line- trap the liquid water you can, and then pass the air charge through a desiccants and you will know you have no issues. Otherwise take your chances. If you are using a slower pump doing short direct fills (so the pump can't heat up much), you likely will have no issues - as long as the tank does not end up being in a temperature below the ambient levels we compressed at, there will likely be no condensation. If the pump is faster (thus must result in a higher temperature air charge) and are filling larger reservoirs like tanks (thus hits an equilibrium temperature well above ambient), you will face a bigger issue.
 
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I may have said this before in this thread, I apologize if that is the case, but the nice picture in post 102 causes me to raise what I think is an important point. The filters in that picture appear to be below the gun which is good but above the compressor which may not be good. If there is a bleed screw on one of the filters it is fine. But the cheapest way to deal with the moisture is to let it condense and run to a point we can bleed it out. As Alan nicely pointed out that is not a total solution because the air will not get back to ambient temperature but we can save dessicant changes if we get most of the water to condense and blow it out. With my YH I have both filters above the YH and I vent it about every 5 minutes as I fill my tank. This time of year noticable moisture is blown out each time.

I also think it may be an advantage that the GX compressors run so much cooler than my Yong Heng. Logically that means the air is lower temperature closer to ambient so it will not be able to carry as much moisture towards our tank or gun.
 
I may have said this before in this thread, I apologize if that is the case, but the nice picture in post 102 causes me to raise what I think is an important point. The filters in that picture appear to be below the gun which is good but above the compressor which may not be good. If there is a bleed screw on one of the filters it is fine. But the cheapest way to deal with the moisture is to let it condense and run to a point we can bleed it out. As Alan nicely pointed out that is not a total solution because the air will not get back to ambient temperature but we can save dessicant changes if we get most of the water to condense and blow it out. With my YH I have both filters above the YH and I vent it about every 5 minutes as I fill my tank. This time of year noticable moisture is blown out each time.

I also think it may be an advantage that the GX compressors run so much cooler than my Yong Heng. Logically that means the air is lower temperature closer to ambient so it will not be able to carry as much moisture towards our tank or gun.
That's mine. Compressor is below the filters for bleeding line and moisture trap in compressor after each fill; first filter has one-way valve so don't lose air in them. First filter is Condolencing with bleeder a bottom which I open periodically when filling. Lines are routed so air path to and thru filters and to gun is upward, except from top of blue to bottom of gold; wouldn't have been portable otherwise.
Color changing Silica beads in blue filter I have yet to see change beyond bottom inch and that was after long term use in humid conditions.These usually stay under some amount of pressure, same as storing a gun so they don't get opened for months at a time. I've yet to find detectable/visible moisture in the gun since going with this arrangement.
 
Because compressing air doesn’t remove moisture. The air is heated, allowing it to carry more moisture. Once cooled it condenses into liquid form. The volume of moisture is retained, but compressed into a much smaller space.

There is no way around that…
Compressing air, to a sufficient degree, causes water to condense and drop out in liquid form, agree?

Compressing air, causes the air to be heated during compression, but from where comes the "more moisture"....oh, wait! I think that I see how we are talking at cross purposes.

You are referring to the compression stage only, correct?

While I am referring to the compression process, intake of air into the compressor apparatus, compression and delivery into the ambient temperature holding vessel.

Perhaps sloppy phrasing as I am used to speaking with technical people who reference the compression proccess. *I am in no way suggesting that you are not qualified, simply adding context in order to check for agreement.

If this is how we differ, then it appears that the only difference is that I make it more clear that I am referring to the compression process for those who do not automatically recognize that?