Tuning Jumping to conclusions. When knowledge, resources and ability are a curse.

[Vetmx]

I believe the more you know doesn’t make you immune to getting spun. A new guy to a hobby gets spun over the things experienced guys easily work through. The experienced guy gets spun sometimes worse by overthinking things or overlooking the obvious. I recently was about to set fire to a gun because it just wasn’t shooting as good as it did previously. Did a bunch of testing, found nothing so I put it back on its original settings. I was in a topic conversation and a guy 6gun had mentioned barrel cleaning being one of the slug hurdles. I knew I didn’t have that many shots through the gun but it does go long periods of inactivity. Even though I didn’t reach my cleaning number, I cleaned it anyway. Bam, accurate gun again. I went on a nut mission when all my gun needed was cleaned.

Here we are a month later. Another gun with a barrel I built was always a pretty good performer. After hunting season I was giving it the monthly checkup I do with some of my guns that require it. I wasn’t happy. Yes, the first thing I did was clean the barrel this time. It was solid at 30 & 50 yards but not as good as I’d like at 75 & 100. So I changed the reg pressure and got to its happy speed a different way. It was good to go. A couple nights ago I got it out to shoot it and it wasn’t good. I got pissed, went down to the shop and retrieved a TJ barrel I used on a RTI back in 2019. It was a shooter but I had to push that old Priest pretty hard while using it. I had to work some machining wizardtry making what I had to work with fit a FX. I got done with it but before I tore the gun down to install it and the components that accommodate it, I shot the gun again. Tack driver. Got up today and picked off starlings out to 115 yards. So the newly machined barrel now gets set aside.

Moral of the story is I spent hours machining a barrel because I could. If I didn’t have that option, I probably would have started twisting knobs and digging into pounds of other slugs in the stash because I could. What I need to get back to is just not jumping to conclusions and maybe blame myself for having a bad day or overlooking something obvious because I should. I think the hardest thing for some of us to admit is we are just having a bad shooting day. These guns, especially with slugs can make us paranoid and quick to cast blame. I need to burn it into my brain. It takes three consecutive shooting sessions of unhappiness before I dive in deeper than a barrel cleaning.

 

[Ranchibi]

It is very easy to over think and over look the simple obvious things....genius is seeing a simple adjustment or fix a friend (who is one of a few space radar techs) said to me.....

 

[6gun]

Thanks for the mention vetmx! I look to you more often than you'd think as the voice of reason to not go and spend 6 hours machining something to squeek out 40 fps or 20 thou on a group, or to not mess with it because it's that way for a reason.

Sometimes the answer is just as simple as "it ain't got no gas in it"

Nerd time : for those who don't mess with cast bullets in pb stuff, alloy composition and barrel leading go hand in hand. Hard alloys don't play as nice with lower power levels or pop/expand at speeds airguns can achieve. Pure lead fouls in long ribbons that fill rifling grooves ime, and hard lead with lots of antimony in the alloy (cphp) will build little islands of stuck on fouling that change projectile balance causing them to turn in flight or sometimes tumble.

When I was shooting 1000 rounds of 900 fps 38 at a time, and with some experimentation, I found some cphp range scrap (antimony content) a little tin, and some pure lead was just the ticket for that speed, in that gun(recipe is in my casting data and not my head) . And will likely use this alloy if I start casting slugs.

Its an honor to get a tribal-knowledge mention by you, even if Im just Billy Bob telling you it ain't got no gas in it.

 

[6gun]

Amen to the post title too!

 

[Vetmx]

Thanks for the mention vetmx! I look to you more often than you'd think as the voice of reason to not go and spend 6 hours machining something to squeek out 40 fps or 20 thou on a group, or to not mess with it because it's that way for a reason.

Sometimes the answer is just as simple as "it ain't got no gas in it"

Nerd time : for those who don't mess with cast bullets in pb stuff, alloy composition and barrel leading go hand in hand. Hard alloys don't play as nice with lower power levels or pop/expand at speeds airguns can achieve. Pure lead fouls in long ribbons that fill rifling grooves ime, and hard lead with lots of antimony in the alloy (cphp) will build little islands of stuck on fouling that change projectile balance causing them to turn in flight or sometimes tumble.

When I was shooting 1000 rounds of 900 fps 38 at a time, and with some experimentation, I found some cphp range scrap (antimony content) a little tin, and some pure lead was just the ticket for that speed, in that gun(recipe is in my casting data and not my head) . And will likely use this alloy if I start casting slugs.

Its an honor to get a tribal-knowledge mention by you, even if Im just Billy Bob telling you it ain't got no gas in it.

For years I’ve been questioning guns that sit dormant for a while. The first focus with a gun that’s harmonically sensitive is first shot velocity. I’ve worked that kink out of all my guns. Normal guns and the FX stinkers. But it seems with some barrel/slug combos, I still need a couple shots for my slugs to land on top of each other if the gun has sat for a while. I was thinking the lubing process and what it creates might be the problem. I spent months of testing different lubes but got sidetracked by other up sides and down sides. Now I’m back with what always worked. Off topic but still something that proves the more you know the deeper you look into what doesn’t concern others.

 

[RobBonnell89]

Well said. I’m fairly new to airguns and everything is a big learning process. Some days you just gotta walk away. Start with a fresh mind tomorrow.

Hopefully my first Reg PRod build will be done soon. Been messing with it on/off for weeks trying to hit my goal of atleast 24 shots @ 18fpe. Did valve mods, ports, springs, hill lw hammer, etc. Every time I’d get close to my goal… The needed hammer spring would turn my trigger to crap. Tried various valve springs, made a delrin poppet. Even made little 3-5gram hammer weights. Trigger would still go poop after 17fpe ish.

Couple days ago I had Prod apart once again. I decided to throw the factory hammer in for fun. It’s around 50 grams vs 20g of the lightweight one. Boom, Prod instantly cocks easier and trigger is smooth again. Hitting the plateau with ease.
So next I shoot a string. I gained like 4-5 shots on the reg & 1/2 fpe more. 28 shots at about 18 1/2 (For a Prod that’s huge). Crushed my goal on first try with original hammer . Guys use lw hammer all the time but it didn’t work for me. Wish I would have tried it about 500 pellets ago.

Atleast I’m learning. Now the obsession with numbers will start with the factory hammer haha.

Rob

 

[Vetmx]

Well said. I’m fairly new to airguns and everything is a big learning process. Some days you just gotta walk away. Start with a fresh mind tomorrow.

Hopefully my first Reg PRod build will be done soon. Been messing with it on/off for weeks trying to hit my goal of atleast 24 shots @ 18fpe. Did valve mods, ports, springs, hill lw hammer, etc. Every time I’d get close to my goal… The needed hammer spring would turn my trigger to crap. Tried various valve springs, made a delrin poppet. Even made little 3-5gram hammer weights. Trigger would still go poop after 17fpe ish.

Couple days ago I had Prod apart once again. I decided to throw the factory hammer in for fun. It’s around 50 grams vs 20g of the lightweight one. Boom, Prod instantly cocks easier and trigger is smooth again. Hitting the plateau with ease.
So next I shoot a string. I gained like 4-5 shots on the reg & 1/2 fpe more. 28 shots at about 18 1/2 (For a Prod that’s huge). Crushed my goal on first try with original hammer . Guys use lw hammer all the time but it didn’t work for me. Wish I would have tried it about 500 pellets ago.

Atleast I’m learning. Now the obsession with numbers will start with the factory hammer haha.

Rob

I played the Prod game many years ago. When I sold the JSAR SS valve and switched to a reg, I used the stock hammer. The game changer was building a good SSG and the right spring. My muzzle report was so clean that I didn’t use a mod. What was in the shroud was good enough.

 

[6gun]

For years I’ve been questioning guns that sit dormant for a while. The first focus with a gun that’s harmonically sensitive is first shot velocity. I’ve worked that kink out of all my guns. Normal guns and the FX stinkers. But it seems with some barrel/slug combos, I still need a couple shots for my slugs to land on top of each other if the gun has sat for a while. I was thinking the lubing process and what it creates might be the problem. I spent months of testing different lubes but got sidetracked by other up sides and down sides. Now I’m back with what always worked. Off topic but still something that proves the more you know the deeper you look into what doesn’t concern others.

In my fx I started lubing pellets when I could shoot those and it made everything better in some regard. After slug gun mods I figured it should work on slugs too, Nope. I fought garbage groups (for what I want) for 200 rounds of siliconed patriots before I swabbed the bore and shot "as supplied" slugs and it went right to what I wanted.

Now I'm fighting high resolution data taking the fun out of my impact and just shooting the dreamline as you've seen in many posts. And temp and altitude density messing with my ballistics solving scope. It's not a bad shooter, it's just not a perfect "calculator gun" yet.

For whatever all those words are worth.

 

[kwaping]

I fought garbage groups (for what I want) for 200 rounds of siliconed patriots before I swabbed the bore and shot "as supplied" slugs and it went right to what I wanted.

I wonder if they were so slippery that the barrel wasn't able to spin them enough.

 

[Vetmx]

In my fx I started lubing pellets when I could shoot those and it made everything better in some regard. After slug gun mods I figured it should work on slugs too, Nope. I fought garbage groups (for what I want) for 200 rounds of siliconed patriots before I swabbed the bore and shot "as supplied" slugs and it went right to what I wanted.

Now I'm fighting high resolution data taking the fun out of my impact and just shooting the dreamline as you've seen in many posts. And temp and altitude density messing with my ballistics solving scope. It's not a bad shooter, it's just not a perfect "calculator gun" yet.

For whatever all those words are worth.

Never shot a dry slug out of a couple of my more recent barrels. I will give it a try. Dry slugs an TJ barrels are a no go. Learned that back in 2017 when I built my first TJ slug shooter. Got discouraged because my accuracy window was so small. Then a guy Knifemaker opened the silicone door. I couldn’t wrap my head around it. Alox, wax or even Pyrolube I could wrap my head around. But not so good side effects. The silicone let me go 200 shots on a TJ so it is what it is. I’ll experiment with this LW that caused this topic and see what happens with dry slugs.

 

[RobBonnell89]

I played the Prod game many years ago. When I sold the JSAR SS valve and switched to a reg, I used the stock hammer. The game changer was building a good SSG and the right spring. My muzzle report was so clean that I didn’t use a mod. What was in the shroud was good enough.

I’m learning on a simple platform. Parts are cheap and plentiful if I mess up lol. Haven’t went down the SSG hole yet. I did notice now that I’m getting more efficient tune it’s a lot quieter. Especially around the 17fpe range. That’s extra little 25-30 fps of current tune gives it a little snap.

 

[6gun]

Never shot a dry slug out of a couple of my more recent barrels. I will give it a try. Dry slugs an TJ barrels are a no go. Learned that back in 2017 when I built my first TJ slug shooter. Got discouraged because my accuracy window was so small. Then a guy Knifemaker opened the silicone door. I couldn’t wrap my head around it. Alox, wax or even Pyrolube I could wrap my head around. But not so good side effects. The silicone let me go 200 shots on a TJ so it is what it is. I’ll experiment with this LW that caused this topic and see what happens with dry slugs.

I'm going to revisit lubed slugs again now that I've changed a couple big variables. I suspect there's some lube on these javelins that also fouls the bore

Whats your thoughts on Moly, hex boron, oil "seasoning"?

 

[Vetmx]

I'm going to revisit lubed slugs again now that I've changed a couple big variables. I suspect there's some lube on these javelins that also fouls the bore

Whats your thoughts on Moly, hex boron, oil "seasoning"?

Moly slugs would 100% be the way to go but we know what happened to moly bullets. I was powder coating them for while back then. Major pain in the butt because of sizing. I just know the last few barrels I tested without lube or a mild lube, the train went off the tracks accuracy wise way quicker. My 6mm coyote gun is a barrel fowler. When I run out of my stash of moly bullets, I’ll have to rebarrel it.

 

[Vetmx]

I'm going to revisit lubed slugs again now that I've changed a couple big variables. I suspect there's some lube on these javelins that also fouls the bore

Whats your thoughts on Moly, hex boron, oil "seasoning"?

Cleaned barrel and started testing this barrel with a dry lube. I can usually reach my target speed in about 10-15 shots on a clean barrel with silicone. Took around 25 and I’m still a little shy. Gun started putting them all in one large hole after shot 12. Accuracy out to 75 tonight seemed to be on par with silicone. At some point I’ll let the gun sit a week or two and try a cold, no goo five shot group. Keeping track of shots now to see when it needs to be cleaned also.

 

[Tricky-Dicky]

LOL! I have been guilty of overthinking things most of my life, overlooking the simple stuff is a curse.

 

[6gun]

Moly slugs would 100% be the way to go but we know what happened to moly bullets. I was powder coating them for while back then. Major pain in the butt because of sizing. I just know the last few barrels I tested without lube or a mild lube, the train went off the tracks accuracy wise way quicker. My 6mm coyote gun is a barrel fowler. When I run out of my stash of moly bullets, I’ll have to rebarrel it.

I haven't had any of the moly problems in the cromo barrel I use them in for 20 years but it's a base level coyote cartridge too. Boron would be best. Seasoning with clp has show promise over the last 20 years for casual shooting too. Just like a cast iron pan but using time instead of heat.

 

[Motorhead]

I too do agree vast knowledge can be a curse & especially as our years ( Becoming older to elderly ) has us sadly forgetting or miss catching a problem at a faster rate than we are learning something new.
As to barrels & accuracy .. a preaching to the choir for years is BRUSHING barrel bores to remain lead fouling free !!! As dragging a loose fitting patch does very little in removing lead fouling.
Next best w/o doing the brush thing is using a NO BRUSH Hoppes bore snake of correct caliber that will squeak & squeal like a little pig as it's drawn threw barrel & they work very well !!

Great post Vetmx

 

[steve123]

For me the frustrating two things with pcp's is screws coming loose over time and a scope that had shifting problems which also got progressively worse as time went by. Apparently pcp's have more vibrations than I ever thought they would.

The other frustrations were silly ways some aspects of a gun which were designed funky to begin with. I can't really judge because I'm not a engineer but at the same time I always think to my self that a problem will arise from that design and sure enough it happens sooner than later.