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A request to all MD's / Club Reps.

A couple of quick things to advance the conversation (not trying to stir anything up, just trying to get some perspective).

If you PREFER to shoot with your eye 10 inches above the ground but you are forced to elevate your eye to 20 inches above the ground for 1 or 2 targets in a match, is that considered unfair to you? My favorite springer does not allow me to use an adjustable hamster for shooting WFTF, making elevated targets more difficult for me. Should we get rid of elevated targets so that I can have a fair and "level" playing field? Or should I figure it out for myself?

I get that some people struggle more than others to see targets in difficult light conditions. For the sake of clarity, the target in the barrel at this year's ROT on lane 5 of day 1 was painted grey (because it was an elephant, so it had to be grey). The hit percentage for the target (43 yards with a 1.5 inch kill zone) was 74.42 %. Lane 10 had a Vulture at 43 yards with a 1.5 inch kill zone sitting out in the open. The hit percentage on that target was 73.26 %. Lane 11 had a cardinal at 44 yards with a 1.5 inch kill zone with a hit percentage of 74.42%, same as the elephant. I guess my point is that just because a target is easier to see doesn't mean it's easier to hit. The highest hit percentage of the day was a black bat at 27 yards with a 3/4 inch kill zone in the shade, 90.7%.
I agree. If we cater to just a few shooters, at the cost of more work for the MD's and field crews, is it worth it? Maybe work on how to adjust your form to be useful in varied positions and conditions.

At my club you have to change position for %70-%80 of the targets. You may shoot one target on the left elevated in a tree at 21yds, then swing hard right for a 55yd target in the shade, aiming low. Our woods course go's so far as to have a different shooters box for every lane.

When I practice for big matches, I try to shoot an event at the hosting club beforehand. If that's not an option, I google earth the location to find out what type of terrain and cover I can expect to see. Then I find a location to those conditions, set up some targets and get to practicing.

I guess what I'm saying, and already said is: If you are serious about being competitive, you need to train for all, any, and even imaginary scenarios .
 
Angle and distance are the only modifiers that count currently...the wind and light/dark modifiers are meaningless for GP scoring. At a club match under the AAFTA rule set the light/dark will move the difficulty needle.
This is not a discussion about GP points just to be clear. The dark/light and wind modifiers matter when setting a course. My point is, I did this on purpose and noted the difficulty increase when mapping out the course. As SCotton posted earlier, the hit rate on that target was about 70%.
 
A couple of quick things to advance the conversation (not trying to stir anything up, just trying to get some perspective).

If you PREFER to shoot with your eye 10 inches above the ground but you are forced to elevate your eye to 20 inches above the ground for 1 or 2 targets in a match, is that considered unfair to you? My favorite springer does not allow me to use an adjustable hamster for shooting WFTF, making elevated targets more difficult for me. Should we get rid of elevated targets so that I can have a fair and "level" playing field? Or should I figure it out for myself?

I get that some people struggle more than others to see targets in difficult light conditions. For the sake of clarity, the target in the barrel at this year's ROT on lane 5 of day 1 was painted grey (because it was an elephant, so it had to be grey). The hit percentage for the target (43 yards with a 1.5 inch kill zone) was 74.42 %. Lane 10 had a Vulture at 43 yards with a 1.5 inch kill zone sitting out in the open. The hit percentage on that target was 73.26 %. Lane 11 had a cardinal at 44 yards with a 1.5 inch kill zone with a hit percentage of 74.42%, same as the elephant. I guess my point is that just because a target is easier to see doesn't mean it's easier to hit. The highest hit percentage of the day was a black bat at 27 yards with a 3/4 inch kill zone in the shade, 90.7%.

So here are some perspectives to help:

If you PREFER to shoot with your eye 10 inches above the ground but you are forced to elevate your eye to 20 inches above the ground for 1 or 2 targets in a match, is that considered unfair to you?

Imagine if we were forced to decrease the elevation of what you are "used" to. For example, if we had a Hunter shooter who is used to shooting on a bucket, then the lane opportunity necessitates them not to not be on a bucket seated about ten or twenty inches lower to visualize the target. How would that be perceived? I believe there would be a Hunter mutiny! I believe there is a difference between an elevated target and an obscured target that should be visible "from all positions," as the rules state.

The reality is that we have three general positions in FT: Standing, Kneeling, and Sitting. Now, the sitting position, that ranges from about 15" off the deck to about 36", depending on what class you are in.

My favorite springer does not allow me to use an adjustable hamster for shooting WFTF, making elevated targets more difficult for me. Should we get rid of elevated targets so that I can have a fair and "level" playing field? Or should I figure it out for myself?

This is an equipment choice circumstance and not a positional-form circumstance.

targets in difficult light conditions

And low contrast targets. These situations cause deteriorating circumstances as the match progresses. When shooting KZs where the entire KZ becomes paint-free and the surrounding faceplate shares no differentiation with the paddle, it becomes difficult to identify the KZ at all if there are no contrasting features or lighting.

Another Perspective:

The biggest problem with obscured targets (terrain or foliage) that are not visible when in the sitting position is that the responsibility falls on the first shooter when the match starts to identify this issue. If that shooter sits high (bucket) and the next shooter can't see the target (bumbag shooter), the match "has already started" and it becomes too late to correct. This situation creates a bad undertone for a competitive event, where these circumstances should have been corrected well beforehand or at the very least, on the first shot of the match. In an event where everyone is in the same class, this issue resolves itself quickly.

Personally, I'm all about challenging circumstances, not obscurity that falls outside the rules.

Oh, and this is not attacking any one particular event. This seems to be a recurring theme at many events that becomes "overlooked"
 
Another Perspective:

The biggest problem with obscured targets (terrain or foliage) that are not visible when in the sitting position is that the responsibility falls on the first shooter when the match starts to identify this issue. If that shooter sits high (bucket) and the next shooter can't see the target (bumbag shooter), the match "has already started" and it becomes too late to correct. This situation creates a bad undertone for a competitive event, where these circumstances should have been corrected well beforehand or at the very least, on the first shot of the match. In an event where everyone is in the same class, this issue resolves itself quickly.
I try to remember to refer back to the AAFTA rule on Targets:
H. Any obstruction (grass, tree limb, etc.) shall be related to the Chief Marshal and removed prior to
the first competitor shooting a lane.If an obstruction occurs by some natural condition during the
match and only affects a limited number of shooters, the Match Director, at his/her discretion may
remove the obstruction and allow the affected shooters reshoot the target. Otherwise, the
obstruction must remain for the duration of the competition unless it creates a hazardous
condition, such as a potential for ricochet.

I see in this portion of the rule, some leeway for an MD to make a good decision for obscured targets that only affect some of the shooters, and I would not hesitate to use it in the future.
 
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I try to remember to refer back to the AAFTA rule on Targets:
H. Any obstruction (grass, tree limb, etc.) shall be related to the Chief Marshal and removed prior to
the first competitor shooting a lane.If an obstruction occurs by some natural condition during the
match and only affects a limited number of shooters, the Match Director, at his/her discretion may
remove the obstruction and allow the affected shooters reshoot the target. Otherwise, the
obstruction must remain for the duration of the competition unless it creates a hazardous
condition, such as a potential for ricochet.

I see in this portion of the rule, some leeway for an MD to make a good decision for obscured targets that only affect some of the shooters, and I would not hesitate to use it in the future.
Bingo! This was a great change in the rules. Years ago, I had to tell shooters to suck it up and deal with it because the match was underway, and that never felt right.

Assuming the shooter has tried to move around within the shooting box and is unable to avoid an obstruction, I have no issue moving it at any point in the match. As an MD, how I am to know whether said obstruction was present the entire match or not? Over the years, we have seen shooters pull up a string to check wind and upset some twigs/sticks that end up obscuring the KZ when they go to range the target. Or shift something near the close target that creates an obstruction on the far target. I've also had situations where rain from one day to the next of a GP weighs down some tree limbs/leaves and they're now in the way of a target mounted beyond them. There are situations where someone on the ground may have zero issues and a bucket shooter may be just fine and of course, the opposite. As an MD, I prefer to just handle it and move on.

But in the general spirit of the thread, if I think there's going to be a visibility issue on a given target, I get myself on the ground and check visibility during course set up and try to adjust accordingly. Sometimes, it's adding another cinder block to move things higher, sometimes it's trimming brush to ensure nothing gets in the way. Do I think this requires changes to the rules, not really. But I do think MD's need to be more attentive to ALL shooters, not just shooters within their chosen class.
 
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Funny thing is Jeff and I can't even agree on what is considered an elevated target when we are setting out targets.
At least the rules stipulate a minimum angle for complying with checking the box (however there is no standardized height from which this measurement should be taken), the other difficulty enhancements are far too vague to be actionable.

I was of the opinion that 20 degrees should be the angle early on (I believe this is the angle at which the poi is affected), now I have been entertaining the idea that there needs to be some type of distance consideration, something like 15 degrees past 35 yards and 20 degrees under 35 yards. From experience most people assume the angle is close to twice what it really is.

None of it really matters (up/down, light/dark, course Troyer, wind, etc) when the scores are standardized across the divisions for the match as long as the course is set so the top competitors shoot a 90% or better hit rate. This also brings new shooters back compared to courses set as difficult as they can be with wind excluded in locales where wind is always present and very real even at 20 ft-lbs.

Simplifying the course set up process/rule set would likely produce more GP matches in the long run.