Surprised by Performance .30 vs. .25

[PumaCarl]

I recently got a .30 ( a Paradigm, but that doesn't really matter) and depending what I'm shooting for projectiles, it does between 70-80 fpe. I have shot some woodchucks and porcupines with both slugs and pellets and I am a little bit underwhelmed by the performance of the .30 when compared against my kills with a 58fpe .25 shooting 34gr MkII JSB. I don't really know if I am being fair or not, because I really love the MKII pellet, but it really seems to do just as well (or better?) at putting down critters. At least in my experience so far. Do any of you who hunt with both think there isn't much of an actual advanage to .30? At least at the power level I am running, for woodchuck sized targets? I know that the sound made by the .30 hitting is more impressive, but the actual result not so much. My first woodchuck I shot with the .30 was with a FX Hybrid at 845fps at 30 yards and I took a body shot to see how the round would do and it wasn't drt. I have taken the same shot on the same size woodchuck at the same distance, with the .25, and had the pellet go through and loudly ricochet off the stone wall he was on. I also used the .30 56gr Zan pellets at 80fpe and I think those are better for my uses but I wonder about the penetration too and if the .25 actually does enough with less. I have shot porcupines with both and can't really tell if the blunt force trauma of the .30 is beating the .25's penetration or not. I was really expecting to be completely blown away by the .30 in every conceivable way and I really am not. It is a lot more fun to shoot at reactive targets for sure, but hunting not so much. I need to do a few more head shots with the Zan 56gr pellets at longer ranges and see how they do, just waiting for the opportunity. If I don't get impressed by the end of the summer, I am going to contact Tom to see if he would do a swap to .25. When I originally watched Donnie Reed's video on .25 vs. .30, I didn't think too much of it because it wasn't apples to apples. I still don't like how he did it but I am drawing the same conclusion, that the .25 is probably all that I need. I know that I can take longer shots with the .30, but with pellet flight time I really don't want to go over 125 yards too often. I am going to try some +100 yard shots though, and if they work out, then yeah, I will definitely keep the .30, only because I already have a .25 for the close stuff.

 

[dgeesaman]

Woodchucks are pretty durable critters against body shots unless the round is powerful enough to turn them inside out (a centerfire firearm). Stick with the headshots and my preferred method is back of head with a predator polymag so it cuts into the hide.

As for .25 vs .30, ballistically they both drift and drop a similar amount but the .30 does hit harder on arrival. But the difference is not huge.

IME

 

[pnwairgunner]

If you have more faith in the .25 then it sure makes sense to use the cheaper ammo.
.30 ammo is expensive, but it’s my favorite for knocking down critters. It seems to me that it does deliver more energy to everything I’ve shot. I prefer the JSB 44gr in my .30s and don’t even mess with slugs in them anymore. They are so precisely accurate out of my Evol and Uragan that there’s no room for improvement with anything else (At my personal skill level anyway.)
I don’t think I would personally spend any time or money on swapping calibers on a Paradigm though. It just seems uncouth to me. Hahahahaha

 

[Yoda_1794]

I like the quietness of my .25 Veteran. My .30 Maverick VP was too loud and critters would run after the first shot.
I have zero experience hunting with them except pesting little birds and squirrels in my yard at 35yds. Again, one shot of the .30 and everyone flies away. The .25 however, more kills per day.
At 25 yards, everything drops dead with either

 

[madeintheuk]

I like the quietness of my .25 Veteran. My .30 Maverick VP was too loud and critters would run after the first shot.
I have zero experience hunting with them except pesting little birds and squirrels in my yard at 35yds. Again, one shot of the .30 and everyone flies away. The .25 however, more kills per day.
At 25 yards, everything drops dead with either

I also enjoy my 25 vet for quiet backyard pesting. It still puts a thump with 34grain pellets, and it’s a laser with them. In the end, we say it again and again, power means nothing without accuracy. While the 30 has its place, 25 will hold its own on small to medium game as long as you’re accurate where you put it. The bigger the caliber, the more forgiving shot placement gets.

 

[Airgunmann]

I can crank the 30 up to 105 fpe easier than I can my 25 so yes ido see some advantages over the 25 but I like both calibers about equally I think at the power levels your at you wouldn't a great advantage over the other the mk2 34 gr jsb is a good pellet with good bc so Im really surprised

 

[PumaCarl]

If you have more faith in the .25 then it sure makes sense to use the cheaper ammo.
.30 ammo is expensive, but it’s my favorite for knocking down critters. It seems to me that it does deliver more energy to everything I’ve shot. I prefer the JSB 44gr in my .30s and don’t even mess with slugs in them anymore. They are so precisely accurate out of my Evol and Uragan that there’s no room for improvement with anything else (At my personal skill level anyway.)
I don’t think I would personally spend any time or money on swapping calibers on a Paradigm though. It just seems uncouth to me. Hahahahaha

The gun has already been switched from .22 to .30 so swapping isn't as traumatic at this point. If they had been offered in .25 originally, I would've gotten that for the Paradigm. I still would've tried .30, but probably out of an AEA 30" bullpup at +120fpe.

 

[PumaCarl]

I also enjoy my 25 vet for quiet backyard pesting. It still puts a thump with 34grain pellets, and it’s a laser with them. In the end, we say it again and again, power means nothing without accuracy. While the 30 has its place, 25 will hold its own on small to medium game as long as you’re accurate where you put it. The bigger the caliber, the more forgiving shot placement gets.

This is exactly what I was thinking but shot placement seems to be just as important with both. I used to shoot a 22-250 and that would blow them in half but with airguns shot placement is always going to have to be exact, and preferably a headshot.

 

[N2 Shooter]

Well, I moved up from a 45 fpe .25cal to an 85fpe (now at 95fpe), and the results blew me away.! I also do a fair amount of woodchuck pesting so take a look at these videos of their performance. All shots taken with the FX Maverick VP shooting FX Hybrid Slugs at 930 fps:

As you can see, if you put that slug right on, or just behind the shoulder, it's a wrap. Around 9 times out of 10, they were DRT.

 

[N2 Shooter]

I just wanted to add, if you can tune your gun to push the slugs faster, I think you'll get better expansion and terminal performance. 930 fps did very well with hybrid slugs. With lower velocities at 845 fps, you're not gonna get expansion fast enough, and the slugs will just zip through the prey.

I've seen Donny's video, and I agree that for the same energy, a .25cal will penetrate deeper, but for the same energy, a .177cal will go deeper still, as it's just physics. But if you can expand while in the game, and transfer energy to the pest, while creating a larger wound channel, the .30cal wins.

 

[PumaCarl]

Yeah, there is no easy answer, but more speed would help with slugs. I think that I'm going to pass on slugs though and stick to the 56gr Zan pellets. I have been finding it hard to safely shoot far with big slugs, too dangerous in crowded New England, I don't want to worry about it. If I want a long range slug gun I will get a .22 where a heavy slug is 40gr. and I would probably shoot lighter. I am going to turn up my reg to shoot 90fpe (850fps) with the Zan 56gr pellet and leave it. Using the slugs I have to clean my barrel all the time too and with pellets I don't, so I won't miss shooting them that much. For a pellet, and because of the weight, the Zan 56gr have crazy good follow through and good stability. They are an acceptable trade off to me for power to long range flight and pellets have always worked well for me dispatching critters.

 

[Ezana4CE]

@PumaCarl After taking animals from gray squirrels to beaver with a .25 shooting King Heavy MKIIs, I’m not so sure the .30 has a necessary place in my collection. If I were regularly hunting out past 100 yards, I might see things differently. The .30 lost more appeal after grabbing a .22 that can generate 68-70 fpe with good accuracy. If I need to up the energy then I can jump to .357 from .22 or .25. I’m all for poking a larger hole into the vital organs. It definitely helps if you’re shooting at animals that don’t sit still long since a larger hole is more forgiving on shot placement. After seeing what my more powerful .25 can do, the .30 Evol has been parked. This wasn’t planned, but things just worked out that way and I’m good with it. It’s fun to shoot, but I really don’t have a need for it at the moment. A .30 is an odd caliber for my airgun hunting. The only animal I’d really say it’s right for is a coyote in my region, but again .357 can do the job as well. I’ve seen guys do it with a .25, I just don’t feel like that guy. Maybe it works well for woodchucks, I don’t know. I think that the only comprable animal we have around here are small raccoons, armadillos, or possums. Don’t need a .30 for them, but I’m also not regularly taking body shots on them (except for the armadillos). I have taken one on a beaver shooting King Heavy MKIIs and they’re so dense I couldn’t really see the entrance hole. I saw a bloodshot leg and shoulder and a bruised looking lung. So I can say that the .25 King heavy MKIIs can penetrate to the vitals on a beaver generating 46-47 fpe at the muzzle (the shot was about 47 yards), but I don’t know if I can rely on them to do so consistently. In a smaller animal I’d think that they should zip through them, depending upon your distance. I don’t see why King Heavy MKIIs can’t work on woodchucks. I’ve shot MKIIs out to around 100 yards from my Brocock Bantam Sniper HR and I liked it’s performance. I just don’t know how much energy they retain at that distance from the original 47-48 fpe. I don’t need to tell you how the Evol .30 performs shooting 44.75 diabolo pellets at that distance.

 

[N2 Shooter]

In addition to the other excellent info, take a look at this Ballistic Gel testing video I shot. Although with a .357cal, it gives some insight on how projectile expansion affects terminal performance. Also, try the JSB Hades at the 30 yard distance you're shooting. They expand so much they almost never exit on bodyshots.

 

[PumaCarl]

@PumaCarl After taking animals from gray squirrels to beaver with a .25 shooting King Heavy MKIIs, I’m not so sure the .30 has a necessary place in my collection. If I were regularly hunting out past 100 yards, I might see things differently. The .30 lost more appeal after grabbing a .22 that can generate 68-70 fpe with good accuracy. If I need to up the energy then I can jump to .357 from .22 or .25. I’m all for poking a larger hole into the vital organs. It definitely helps if you’re shooting at animals that don’t sit still long since a larger hole is more forgiving on shot placement. After seeing what my more powerful .25 can do, the .30 Evol has been parked. This wasn’t planned, but things just worked out that way and I’m good with it. It’s fun to shoot, but I really don’t have a need for it at the moment. A .30 is an odd caliber for my airgun hunting. The only animal I’d really say it’s right for is a coyote in my region, but again .357 can do the job as well. I’ve seen guys do it with a .25, I just don’t feel like that guy. Maybe it works well for woodchucks, I don’t know. I think that the only comprable animal we have around here are small raccoons, armadillos, or possums. Don’t need a .30 for them, but I’m also not regularly taking body shots on them (except for the armadillos). I have taken one on a beaver shooting King Heavy MKIIs and they’re so dense I couldn’t really see the entrance hole. I saw a bloodshot leg and shoulder and a bruised looking lung. So I can say that the .25 King heavy MKIIs can penetrate to the vitals on a beaver generating 46-47 fpe at the muzzle (the shot was about 47 yards), but I don’t know if I can rely on them to do so consistently. In a smaller animal I’d think that they should zip through them, depending upon your distance. I don’t see why King Heavy MKIIs can’t work on woodchucks. I’ve shot MKIIs out to around 100 yards from my Brocock Bantam Sniper HR and I liked it’s performance. I just don’t know how much energy they retain at that distance from the original 47-48 fpe. I don’t need to tell you how the Evol .30 performs shooting 44.75 diabolo pellets at that distance.

Ezana4CE, I believe you misunderstood what I was saying about the MKIIs because I agree with you completely about them. They are just about perfect for airgun hunting in a pellet rifle. The .30 is fun and does really long ranges better, but it will serve a rather limited role for me, it's nice to have choices. I also agree with your take on the .30 too, about the same for me, and yeah, I was surprised by that too, definitely not planned.

 

[PumaCarl]

In addition to the other excellent info, take a look at this Ballistic Gel testing video I shot. Although with a .357cal, it gives some insight on how projectile expansion affects terminal performance. Also, try the JSB Hades at the 30 yard distance you're shooting. They expand so much they almost never exit on bodyshots.

The Hades actually didn't shoot that great out of my gun, the only thing that didn't, so I didn't bother with it. I mean, it shot ok, 1" at 53y, but everything else could get hid behind a dime to actual single big hole accuracy. I don't shoot a lot of different pellets, I pick one (rarely 2) for each gun, and the Hades didn't make the cut for one reason or another.

Edit: For future readers I wanted to inform you that the Hades does in fact shoot awesome out of the Paradigm at the right speed. Once I started shooting them at 925fps they became very accurate. The accuracy in my gun for Hades goes like this; 870-880fps meh, 925fps great, 950fps meh. My gun in general doesn't like the 870-880fps zone, which drives me nuts because that is usually where I shoot pellets at.

 

[18.13]

I have been considering switching my .30 Maverick to .25 does anyone have experience with the .25 Hades and how is the expansion

 

[chip78]

I planned to limit myself to 3 calibers: 177, 22 and 30. Bought a gun last year for its stock. It was in 25. My intention was to change it to 22. The seller was kind enough to include a tin of ammo and it changed things for me. I really liked 25! Now I have not shot 30 cal ever since. My backyard activities: Plinking in 177 or 22, chipmunks in 177 or 22, squirrels or raccoons or possums in 22 or 25. I really don't have the need for 30.

 

[JimD]

Reminds me of my experience with 32 fpe P35s, one a 22 and the other a 25. I got the 25 first and detuned it after finding it liked 20 grain FTTs. It's taken 18 squirrels for me with that tune and all but two were DRT. Those two were center of chest hits and didn't go far. The 22 is newer and likes H&N Baracuda Match pellets, 21 grain, and has taken 9 squirrels so far. All DRT. I do see a difference in the squirrels reaction relative to my 17 fpe Prod or my similar powered P35-177. The lower powered guns take them fine but need more careful placement or the squirrel is more likely to travel after the shot. Even with good placement they sometimes take a step or two. What I get from my experience is more power helps but it is one of those many things where the benefit is not linear. You get to a certain point and it becomes difficult to see much difference from the added power.

I've never shot a wood chuck. Do both the 25 and 30 pass through on most shots? If so, an expanding pellet or slug might increase lethality. But that will just get you a wider hole and the 30 is already wider than the 25 and hasn't changed things perceptibly.

 

[JimD]

I thought of another way to look at it while I was walking my dog. I calculated awhile ago the area of pellets versus the area of a squirrel. Then I calculated what size hole it would take in a deer to damage the same percentage of the deers cross sectional area. A 177 pellet has a cross sectional area of .0246 inches squared. I said a squirrel is about 3 inches by 10 inches in side view or about 30 inches squared. Not very exact but gives an order of magnitude type result. The 177 pellet (without expansion) makes a hole about .08% of the surface area of the squirrel (.0246 divided by 30). To damage the same percentage of the area of a deer you'd have to make a hole in the deer .75 inches across. Even with expansion a 30 caliber won't make that sort of hole. Maybe a shotgun slug would. The area percentage for a 22 caliber in a squirrel is on the order of .13% which would require a 1.2 inch diameter hole in a deer.

So what if we apply this to a woodchuck. I googled up a maximum size of 20 inches long and guessed about 5 inches wide or about 100 square inches. That makes the math easier. To damage the same area of the woodchuck as a 177 requires a bit more than a 30 caliber hole (30 caliber is .07065 inches squared). But 177s do not consistently result in DRT on squirrels in my experience. High powered 22s do. But a 35 caliber hole is only .096 in2. A 45 caliber hole is .16 in2. That is a bit more than equivalent to a 22 caliber hole in a squirrel. I bet a 45 caliber airgun would give DRT performance on a woodchuck.

This exercise is not trying to say what will kill any of these animals. It is only trying to say why it is easier for airguns to completely flatten a squirrel than it is to get the same sort of reaction from a larger animal. By this logic, shooting a woodchuck with a 25 or 30 is damaging less of it's area than a 177 damages on a squirrel. So maybe it is not surprising if they often run some. Even a 35 caliber would need some expansion to damage the same area of a woodchuck as a 22 caliber does in a squirrel. A 30 caliber would need to expand up around 40 caliber to damage the same percentage of area of a groundhog as a 22 in a squirrel. It would need to also still penetrate pretty well too.

 

[Huncowboy]

I planned to limit myself to 3 calibers: 177, 22 and 30. Bought a gun last year for its stock. It was in 25. My intention was to change it to 22. The seller was kind enough to include a tin of ammo and it changed things for me. I really liked 25! Now I have not shot 30 cal ever since. My backyard activities: Plinking in 177 or 22, chipmunks in 177 or 22, squirrels or raccoons or possums in 22 or 25. I really don't have the need for 30.

I am in the same boat you are in SE FL. Same menu. Squirrels, raccoons, and opossums. (I do give opossums a warning hiss but they have a bad habit of eating all the bait and visiting my garage). I also do not shoot far. 15-20 yards tops aiming slightly down due to the elevation of my house. I have tried .22 pellets from 16 gr to 31 gr slugs. I do go for headshots. But the most I have ever needed for a raccoon was a .22 16 grain H&N Hornet at 900ish. It is definitely fun with the 31 grain slugs, but it is also more air, noise and mess. The hornets do not seam to bounce. Regular pellets can on a raccoon skull. Obviously the 31 grain slugs don't. Just recently some coyotes showed up on the security cameras. So I might keep the slugs. But I doubt those will stay in front of me long enough for a shot. They are smart.