Dual Regulators a fad or here to stay?

[cahil_2]

I noticed that the new Panthera has a single reg. It also seems like people who own the M3 have more tuning difficulties. I know I am glad I stuck with my mk2 and didn’t upgrade to the M3. So do you think the dual reg is here to stay and is FX going back to a single reg in the future?

 

[ctshooter]

IMO, fad. Just a way to work around poorly designed regulators.

 

[nervoustrig]

The bigger the differential between the reservoir pressure and regulator setpoint, the more beneficial a second regulator can be. I don't know where the Panthera's reg pressure is set but I imagine it's pretty high given its energy level, in which case 2-stage regulation would be of little benefit.

Meanwhile guns set up for pellets at more pedestrian power levels (e.g. .177 at ~20fpe, .22 at 35fpe, .25 at 50fpe) will typically operate at reg pressures in the range of 80 - 140 bar. So with 300 bar reservoirs--and electric compressors to fill them--becoming ever more commonplace, the pressure differentials are frequently pretty significant.

Granted it's also true that a single quality regulator and a decent state of tune will wipe away the benefits of a second regulator. At least so for a good long while. Every regulator will wear over time and begin creeping so the second regulator may buy more time before servicing becomes necessary.

 

[jmohme]

My opinion is that a quality regulator feeding a properly sized plenum should be all that is needed.
A second regulator just seems like something to add unnecessary complexity to things.

But what do I know? I don't own any guns with dual regs. It may be the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Centercut]

FAD. No one I know that shoots an M3 in competition uses both regs.

Edit: I’m referring to higher power guns where plenum pressure is kept relatively high like 150 bar and up.

 

[tor47]

If you hooked up a digital gauge, and filled the gun to 300bar, and had a regpressure of 80 bar, and compared 10 guns with or without a seccond reg, my guess is the guns with two regs most likely would have less reg pressure drop from full bottle down to reg pressure.

 

[tor47]

If you read old threads, before guns had dual regs it was not uncommon to read "I never fill my guns above 200 bar, to not stress the reg". And thouse statements was from owners of all kind of brands. So if experianced airgunners think it was benefitial before to not let the reg have more than 200 bar, it probably still is today.

 

[tor47]

On the other hand, in the old days slug guns did not always had regulators , since they was shot with higher pressures than normal. So the benefit probably dissapear, the higher one goes.

 

[ctshooter]

@tor47 - also consider the advancements of regulators in that time. I have a digital reg gauge hooked up to my Leshiy 2 and from ~280 bar down to 60 bar it'll stay consistent on the digital reg to within the gauges accuracy - which is said to be less than 1 bar.

 

[Blake1521]

100% fad.

 

[yenniedn]

I guess we'll find out when the M4 shows up with 1 or 2 regs...

 

[nervoustrig]

In my previous comments I neglected to mention that dual regulators had been in common use in the paintball world long before we were talking about FX doing it. Many paintball markers have operating pressures as low as 250psi (17 bar). Stepping a 3000psi bottle down to 250psi in one go is asking a lot...a factor of 12x. For PCP airguns, we seldom ask for more than about 3x.

 

[madeintheuk]

I think dual regs have their place. Lower power setups that fill bottles to 300b will put less stress on the regs that need to be consistent. Doesn’t matter how good reg technology becomes, holding back that much pressure is a big job for something so small. It WILL creep, just unknown how much.
High power rifles, the reg pressure is much higher, so it’s holding back less, so creep would be much less. I’m sure that’s why the panthera is a single reg again. Don’t see anyone using it for “low power” stuff.

 

[abqjoe]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the people who complain about M3's have ever even owned one. I own 3, I love them all. Granted, I did have to send 2 of them back to FX right out of the box for a couple of little things. Once I got them back they've been everything I ever wanted. As far as being difficult to tune goes, I don't think they are difficult at all. Have questions, call the tech's over at FX and they'll answer your questions very quickly. My first PCP was an FX Dreamline Tactical that I bought in 2019. From that, I went straight to my Impact M3's this year and had no problem learning how to tune them. But as with anything, pick a platform that is right for you. Every gun has a purpose, pick the one that is right for you.

 

[elh0102]

I think the answer is, both. Yes, it's a fad, but history has shown that we air rifle folks love our gadgets, so that market will probably remain viable. I think the real question relates to the value of using two regulators, and I think it is very little. And, the law of averages is also at work here. I don't know what the likelihood is of getting a regulator without issues. But, I know the likelihood of getting two without issues is less, so I'll take my chances with one.

 

[qball]

Dual reg is 100% necessary if you set your final reg low or much lower than fill pressure. If you have high reg setting then it’s no use, second reg should be a drop in option on high power guns and standard for low power guns.

 

[Centercut]

Dual reg is 100% necessary if you set your final reg low or much lower than fill pressure. If you have high reg setting then it’s no use, second reg should be a drop in option on high power guns and standard for low power guns.

I wouldn’t say 100% necessary. Perhaps beneficial would be a better outlook. My current .22 Cricket mini Carbine has reg set at 115 bar for 18s at 880 fps and I routinely fill the gun to 265 or 270 bar with no issues. It does have a fairly large reg compared to the FX micro-regs. Other guns like the AGT and Taipan experience the same reg to source differential pressure with no issues, but again, except for Uragan they all have large regs.
So no, not “necessary” to have two regs…

 

[Nomadic Pirate 66]

I don't even want one regulator, never mind 2

 

[tor47]

It probably also depends on the construction of the gun if it is worth it. A gun with a tube will loose some of the main reservoir, with two regs in it, leading to less available shots.
Fx have put the first reg in strategic places where it does not take much volume away from the main reservoir. Impact has it in the bottle adapter, with the same volume in the gun as before. Maverick also has it in the "bend" or bottle adapter,where it sacrifice litle extra space.

 

[nervoustrig]

...It does have a fairly large reg compared to the FX micro-regs. Other guns like the AGT and Taipan experience the same reg to source differential pressure with no issues, but again, except for Uragan they all have large regs.

Hi Mike, what is the significance of the regulator's size with respect to the potential pros/cons of a dual regulator setup?

Are you referring to recovery time associated with the orifice size, or the size of some other aspect of the regulator?

In terms of setpoint stability in particular, a small orifice is preferred. The tradeoff of course being recovery time. Beyond that I would say a regulator's input regulation (output pressure repeatability over a wide input pressure range) is mostly influenced by the seat geometry and surface quality and material selection (e.g. nylon, acetal, PEEK, etc.).