Why are not more people using something like this!? (First post edited)...

I think its always funny how everyone is so willing to fork over the big bucks for the next latest & greatest gizmo or gadget. Learn your mil dots and save your money for more ammo.


1. $300 is big bucks? Not so much.

2. Latest and greatest? Not really. This thing has been on the market for years.

3. Gizmo or Gadget? That is relative, I would say.

4. Learn my mil dots and save my money? I know them and I do not need to save money.

Just kidding. Thanks for the input. : )

Kmd
 
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kmd1984

Well said right along my line of thought.

Another large benefit is that almost all of the scope failures are related to the delicate parts used to adjust/stabilize the erector tube and reticle. Eliminating these from the scope would make it much easier to make spring rated scopes. An externally adjustable mount could be made more robust or more precise depending on the intended use.
 
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kmd1984

Well said right along my line of thought.

Another large benefit is that almost all of the scope failures are related to the delicate parts used to adjust/stabilize the erector tube and reticle. Eliminating these from the scope would make it much easier to make spring rated scopes. An externally adjustable mount could be made more robust or more precise depending on the intended use.


Exactly!

Thanks Lewis!

Kmd
 
KMD hats off to you for standing up proud and speaking your mind. This is a public forum which everyone can benefit from reading other peoples posts. I appreciate you sharing your information and thoughts. Such diversity throughout this forum needs a little of this from time to time!

Just as long as you are happy that is all that matters!


CA

Thank you, that's very kind of you...

Kmd
 
50 years ago Bausch & Lomb made and sold a first focal plane scope (Balvar 8A) with no internal adjustments. They offered both one piece and two piece mounts. The fore and aft mounts were opposing cones with screw adjustments for windage and elevation. Very light but durable and reliable. My Rem 40XB regularly shot well under MOA at 100M with this scope. I did not, however, attempt range adjusting as this was a hunting rifle. There are marks on the mount adjustment screws so a person could make repeatable elevation and windage adjustments. Scope attached to the base by a tensioned spring bar. Scope is easily transferred between rifles with no need to re-zero. Unique spring length required for each action / mount dimension. This equipment failed to excite the pb public and was long ago dropped from their line.

A skilled machinist could easily add high pitch threads, range scale and an adjustment knob to this system.
 
"Unique spring length required for each action / mount dimension. This equipment failed to excite the pb public and was long ago dropped from their line."

In those two sentences you perfectly well summarized why this retrograde idea isn't being used by everyone, for that matter by anyone. If there are guns/ equipment that are forgotten today, there is a good reason for that; almost always it is because that product was not optimal in use and the industry figured out something else that is simpler, cheaper, and even better at doing the same job. Modern scopes are exceptionally well built and there's really no reason to have a $300 external Rube Goldberg contraption to do what a $300 scope will do perfectly and possibly more reliably because the scopes adjustment mechanism is protected from the elements. 
 
Well scopes started out with external adjustments. They dont have them anymore because they were not as good or reliable unless you used them only in certain climates and a clean enough environment. 

If you have external adjustments then they are exposed to the weather and particles. Imagine having that thing in an environment that has fine particles of sand and or dirt. I would imagine it would become useless after a day once the fine sand and dirt worked into the mechanism and wore it down so it was no longer usable or just locked it up. I have had it happen with adjustable gadgets that had the adjustments exposed to the elements. Also think about freezing climates. Where I live if I went out hunting with something like that and it was anytime between September and July theres a good chance it would get frozen up and not be able to be adjusted.

Theres a reason why scopes moved to internal adjustment. In order to keep the precise movements needed to accurately adjust optics the mechanical parts need to be protected. If this actually has fully protected and sealed parts then disregard these statements but the photos looked like it probably isnt sealed up tight enough to keep fine dirt, sand or water out of it.

If you plan on using it in controled environments where dirt,sand and freezing water wont be present then maybe it will function correctly for you.

I dont see scope manufacturers dumping the precise protected turrets good scopes have these days to go backwards in technology. If you buy a quality scope you dont have issues with turrets failing, Think about the snipers and target shooters who take shots out to 1 mile and farther when you start talking about scopes needing to be optically zeroed and the turrets not being able to hold adjustments consistently. Those shooters are using 20 - 40 moa bases and maxing out their elevation knobs and still holding over because they have run out of adjustments. Those scopes are not anywhere near optical zero and they are making good hits using the scopes that way.

I have 3 vortex pst viper scopes with all of them setup with a zero stop and a 100 yd zero for them all. I can grab any of the 3 rifles they are on and crank the elevation and horizontal turrets to max and dial them back down the spot they are set for my 100 yd zeros and take them to the range or hunting and take a shot with no worries of the zero being off. Before you ask if I have done it yes I have. One of my buddies will walk by and grab the turret and start twisting it just to be funny if I have it setting on the bench at work. No problem I just dial it back down to the zero stop and its back on the 100 yd zero. I have used leupold, bushnell tactical and night force scopes and they all can be dialed up and down and they still work as intended and hold their zeros.

This device seems to be an answer looking for a problem that doesnt exist. A member posted about being handicapped and not being able to use the turrets on a scope to adjust it and this device would help him. If a device is needed to use a piece of gear due to a handicap then yes it has value and a use for that person if the device will hold up to the elements and maintain its accuracy. For people without a handicap I see it as a step backwards from a good quality scope at least this particular device in its current design.
 
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The suggested types of adjusters here are very similar to the rear portion of aperture sights that have been in service at least as long as scopes have. They don't seem to have any issues with them and they are still in use from the most demanding indoor 10 meter olympic airguns to pistols and rifles used in warfare around the world. The arguments that it has all been tried before or all the best ideas are already in use would suggest there is no reason to think outside the box or to continue efforts of R&D. I love the idea that I could have a modular sighting system and upgrade pieces separately. I know I have scopes that track well and look terrible and vice versa. Many of the current budget (500 & under) scopes have MUCH better optics than controls. Also in some of these types of controls a person could 3d print a cam wheel that would follow their specific trajectory or even have several for different pellet weights or speeds. I would welcome this over some of the current solutions to turret wheels and markings. It may not be for everyone but it may well be useful for many.

Just 2 cents.
 
Well scopes started out with external adjustments. They dont have them anymore because they were not as good or reliable unless you used them only in certain climates and a clean enough environment. 

If you have external adjustments then they are exposed to the weather and particles. Imagine having that thing in an environment that has fine particles of sand and or dirt. I would imagine it would become useless after a day once the fine sand and dirt worked into the mechanism and wore it down so it was no longer usable or just locked it up. I have had it happen with adjustable gadgets that had the adjustments exposed to the elements. Also think about freezing climates. Where I live if I went out hunting with something like that and it was anytime between September and July theres a good chance it would get frozen up and not be able to be adjusted.

Theres a reason why scopes moved to internal adjustment. In order to keep the precise movements needed to accurately adjust optics the mechanical parts need to be protected. If this actually has fully protected and sealed parts then disregard these statements but the photos looked like it probably isnt sealed up tight enough to keep fine dirt, sand or water out of it.

If you plan on using it in controled environments where dirt,sand and freezing water wont be present then maybe it will function correctly for you.

I dont see scope manufacturers dumping the precise protected turrets good scopes have these days to go backwards in technology. If you buy a quality scope you dont have issues with turrets failing, Think about the snipers and target shooters who take shots out to 1 mile and farther when you start talking about scopes needing to be optically zeroed and the turrets not being able to hold adjustments consistently. Those shooters are using 20 - 40 moa bases and maxing out their elevation knobs and still holding over because they have run out of adjustments. Those scopes are not anywhere near optical zero and they are making good hits using the scopes that way.

I have 3 vortex pst viper scopes with all of them setup with a zero stop and a 100 yd zero for them all. I can grab any of the 3 rifles they are on and crank the elevation and horizontal turrets to max and dial them back down the spot they are set for my 100 yd zeros and take them to the range or hunting and take a shot with no worries of the zero being off. Before you ask if I have done it yes I have. One of my buddies will walk by and grab the turret and start twisting it just to be funny if I have it setting on the bench at work. No problem I just dial it back down to the zero stop and its back on the 100 yd zero. I have used leupold, bushnell tactical and night force scopes and they all can be dialed up and down and they still work as intended and hold their zeros.

This device seems to be an answer looking for a problem that doesnt exist. A member posted about being handicapped and not being able to use the turrets on a scope to adjust it and this device would help him. If a device is needed to use a piece of gear due to a handicap then yes it has value and a use for that person if the device will hold up to the elements and maintain its accuracy. For people without a handicap I see it as a step backwards from a good quality scope at least this particular device in its current design.

Couldn't agree more. Well explained. Seems counter intuitive that people, unless there're special circumstances, would want to go back to WW1 technology! I think sometimes we have too much time to ponder improvements that we should spend shooting. 
 
Lewis, that's a fair point. I do like iron sights. I would just point out two factors: Almost all historic service rifles had simple tangent sights which are almost indestructible and not very precise (Think of the AK sights)-- certainly not the moa kind of accuracy everyone is fond of here, whereas those on modern service rifles are often kept at a battle zero and not really adjusted on the fly-- not outside the range; I am sure there are soldiers who have, in action, adjusted( clicked) their rear sight for range but I would suspect that was not very common. 

The 10m sights are indeed fantastically precise but no 10m or small bore/ highpower competitor would even dream of dropping their match rifle in the mud or drag it in the woods. Plus those dials are moving a light diopter unit up and down; not a 20 oz scope that is 15" long. 

This is a good idea, but sometimes the goodness of an idea has to overcome the financial aspects of the market. Say someone develops this system for $300, how many would buy this and then mount a $500 scope on it-- wouldn't almost all $800 scopes be more reliable and track just as well? 
 
The suggested types of adjusters here are very similar to the rear portion of aperture sights that have been in service at least as long as scopes have. They don't seem to have any issues with them and they are still in use from the most demanding indoor 10 meter olympic airguns to pistols and rifles used in warfare around the world. The arguments that it has all been tried before or all the best ideas are already in use would suggest there is no reason to think outside the box or to continue efforts of R&D. I love the idea that I could have a modular sighting system and upgrade pieces separately. I know I have scopes that track well and look terrible and vice versa. Many of the current budget (500 & under) scopes have MUCH better optics than controls. Also in some of these types of controls a person could 3d print a cam wheel that would follow their specific trajectory or even have several for different pellet weights or speeds. I would welcome this over some of the current solutions to turret wheels and markings. It may not be for everyone but it may well be useful for many.

Just 2 cents.

Theres two very important things about this statement. The first one is indoor 10 meter shooters. I already addressed that with saying if you dont expose it to the elements it wont be effected. Also even if its an outdoor competition its still not the same as in the field using it for hunting. Im sure competitors have had sight failures while competing or during practice sessions. The second one is the reference to military use. The adjustable sights on military rifles like the M16 are not precision instruments and not intended to be used as such. The adjustable open sights on military weapons do not have the very small precise adjustments needed like one would for trying to adjust a scope to move by 1/10 of a mil or by 1/4 of an moa or less depending on the scope. The M16 style rear sight is a very course adjustment for elevation and also a very simple built elevation mechanism. It has a very large course threaded screw and very large detents. I can also guarantee if you take that M16 sight out into the desert it will start to lock up and lose its ability to adjust even tho its a very course mechanism. AK-47 or SKS type sights are also very course, very simple and incorporate a simple sliding bar with a notch to sit in at the designated meter mark. I dont know of any service rifle that has highly precise small incremental adjustable sights that would be as small of adjustment and accurate as a scope turrets are. 

I think its good for people to try and improve equipment. I am not saying its a bad thing to try and develop better equipment but the way this one is approached seems to be a step back wards. I dont understand why people keep saying I have problems with my budget scope. Why do you think its called a budget scope? Again I will repeat if you want a scope to work good dont go budget. You say scopes $500 and under dont work well. Ok if none of the scopes in the price range track good use the $429 - $479 dollars the base linked in this thread costs and buy a $1,000 scope.

Just for those who are wondering I looked up reviews of the cold shot base. Seems allot of complaints of inaccuracies and not very repeatable. One base thats recommended by target shooters is called era-tac. Its a german product and seems to have very good reviews from long range shooters. Its not designed to eliminate the shooter using his turrets. Its designed to be used in conjunction with turret adjustment. The base adjusts from 0-70 moa but it only adjusts in 10 moa increments. This option starts at $507. Again its a not piece of equipment with very fine gears or screws for fine adjustment and its also not intended to replace scope turrets. People are still using $1,000 + scopes on this mount for accurate repeatable scope functions to be able to shoot very long distance. You will need a completely sealed unit with precise parts if you plan on eliminating scope turrets. At that point what have you gained over using turrets?
 
50 years ago Bausch & Lomb made and sold a first focal plane scope (Balvar 8A) with no internal adjustments. They offered both one piece and two piece mounts. The fore and aft mounts were opposing cones with screw adjustments for windage and elevation. Very light but durable and reliable. My Rem 40XB regularly shot well under MOA at 100M with this scope. I did not, however, attempt range adjusting as this was a hunting rifle. There are marks on the mount adjustment screws so a person could make repeatable elevation and windage adjustments. Scope attached to the base by a tensioned spring bar. Scope is easily transferred between rifles with no need to re-zero. Unique spring length required for each action / mount dimension. This equipment failed to excite the pb public and was long ago dropped from their line.

A skilled machinist could easily add high pitch threads, range scale and an adjustment knob to this system.

Very interesting. Going to have to Google it. Thanks for bringing it up to my [our] attention!

Kmd.
 
functor

In those two sentences you perfectly well summarized why this retrograde idea isn't being used by everyone, for that matter by anyone. If there are guns/ equipment that are forgotten today, there is a good reason for that; almost always it is because that product was not optimal in use and the industry figured out something else that is simpler, cheaper, and even better at doing the same job.

Go tell this to an Audiophile and explain to him, that they got rid of Vinyl because they were "not optimal in use and the industry figured out something else that is simpler, cheaper, and even better at doing the same job." Good luck. LOL. I guess your theory can also be applied to a "pet rock". I mean, the rocks you had in your driveway were "not optimal in use and the industry figured out something else that is simpler, cheaper, and even better at doing the same job." LOL. That said, I respectfully disagree with your point of view.



Modern scopes are exceptionally well built and there's really no reason to have a $300 external Rube Goldberg contraption to do what a $300 scope will do perfectly and possibly more reliably because the scopes adjustment mechanism is protected from the elements.

You have a PCP air rifle with who knows how many parts in it, that is so complex, that 90% of all people using them, cannot perform any work on it themselves. On top of that sits a scope, that it is even more complex! But hey, lets ignore all of that and call a rail that is nothing more than a "hinge with an adjustment screw on one end" a Rube Goldberg Contraption. Yeah, makes totally sense, ha ha.

Besides, no one says that the adjustments have to exposed. You can totally build an adjustment rail just like a scope where the mechanism is inside.

Thanks,

Kmd
 
LDP

Well scopes started out with external adjustments. They dont have them anymore because they were not as good or reliable unless you used them only in certain climates and a clean enough environment.

I did not know that. I guess as technology improved, they moved the adjustment mechanism inside...



If you have external adjustments then they are exposed to the weather and particles. Imagine having that thing in an environment that has fine particles of sand and or dirt. I would imagine it would become useless after a day once the fine sand and dirt worked into the mechanism and wore it down so it was no longer usable or just locked it up. I have had it happen with adjustable gadgets that had the adjustments exposed to the elements. Also think about freezing climates. Where I live if I went out hunting with something like that and it was anytime between September and July theres a good chance it would get frozen up and not be able to be adjusted.

You JUST said it YOURSELF. Scopes started out with their adjustments on the outside, and that they moved them inside for ALL the reasons you just described. So what makes you think that an adjustment rail has to LEAVE the adjustments outside!? Wouldn't the next logical step be to do the same they did with Scope - MOVE THE ADJUSTMENTS INSIDE!?



Theres a reason why scopes moved to internal adjustment. In order to keep the precise movements needed to accurately adjust optics the mechanical parts need to be protected. If this actually has fully protected and sealed parts then disregard these statements but the photos looked like it probably isnt sealed up tight enough to keep fine dirt, sand or water out of it. If you plan on using it in controled environments where dirt,sand and freezing water wont be present then maybe it will function correctly for you.

We already went over this... : )



I dont see scope manufacturers dumping the precise protected turrets good scopes have these days to go backwards in technology.

Nobody is going backwards.

If you buy a quality scope you dont have issues with turrets failing, Think about the snipers and target shooters who take shots out to 1 mile and farther when you start talking about scopes needing to be optically zeroed and the turrets not being able to hold adjustments consistently. Those shooters are using 20 – 40 moa bases and maxing out their elevation knobs and still holding over because they have run out of adjustments. Those scopes are not anywhere near optical zero and they are making good hits using the scopes that way.

I agree with you. Looking at the results, it seems like a Scope does NOT have to be at Optical Zero to work great. It works just fine the way it is. No doubt about that. But so do Petrol Engines, so why is everyone talking about Electric Motors!? My point is; I am NOT talking about changing the way scopes work, but I get to that later...

I have 3 vortex pst viper scopes with all of them setup with a zero stop and a 100 yd zero for them all. I can grab any of the 3 rifles they are on and crank the elevation and horizontal turrets to max and dial them back down the spot they are set for my 100 yd zeros and take them to the range or hunting and take a shot with no worries of the zero being off. Before you ask if I have done it yes I have. One of my buddies will walk by and grab the turret and start twisting it just to be funny if I have it setting on the bench at work. No problem I just dial it back down to the zero stop and its back on the 100 yd zero. I have used leupold, bushnell tactical and night force scopes and they all can be dialed up and down and they still work as intended and hold their zeros.

I am glad to hear that your scopes work the way they are supposed to. However, your post is a great indication that most people misunderstand what I am trying to say, and what I am trying to use an adjustable rail for. Again, I get to that later, in a separate post.



This device seems to be an answer looking for a problem that doesnt exist.A member posted about being handicapped and not being able to use the turrets on a scope to adjust it and this device would help him. If a device is needed to use a piece of gear due to a handicap then yes it has value and a use for that person if the device will hold up to the elements and maintain its accuracy. For people without a handicap I see it as a step backwards from a good quality scope at least this particular device in its current design.

I totally agree on the handicapped part, but disagree on everything else...



Thanks,

Kmd


 
Lewis

The suggested types of adjusters here are very similar to the rear portion of aperture sights that have been in service at least as long as scopes have. They don't seem to have any issues with them and they are still in use from the most demanding indoor 10 meter olympic airguns to pistols and rifles used in warfare around the world.

Excellent point. Thanks for bringing it up.

The arguments that it has all been tried before or all the best ideas are already in use would suggest there is no reason to think outside the box or to continue efforts of R&D.

EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I love the idea that I could have a modular sighting system and upgrade pieces separately. I know I have scopes that track well and look terrible and vice versa. Many of the current budget (500 & under) scopes have MUCH better optics than controls. Also in some of these types of controls a person could 3d print a cam wheel that would follow their specific trajectory or even have several for different pellet weights or speeds. I would welcome this over some of the current solutions to turret wheels and markings. It may not be for everyone but it may well be useful for many.

Lewis, you totally get it and I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this!

Thanks,

Kmd