And it's a perfectly valid OPINION. All I'm saying is-others might have different OPINIONS as to the relative balance of importance of accuracy and power.
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What speed are you shooting at?
- Thread starter ImpactX
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And it's a perfectly valid OPINION. All I'm saying is-others might have different OPINIONS as to the relative balance of importance of accuracy and power.
To answer your question, yes for MOST pellets. A few like the .22 RD Monsters don’t experience the BC reduction until close to 1000 FPS. MOST pellets see that reduction approx 950 FPS, and slugs over 1000 FPS.
It’s not “theory”, it’s science based fact. Check the articles on pellet and slug external ballistics on Hard Air Magazine online. That should assist in your education.
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ONCE AGAIN, a "most" from you as well as "close to 1000 fps" again. The discussion seemed to revolve around "slower is better" as an absolute, and had progressed down to 700 fps from some. Show me with actual shooting, with a common pellet, in a common wind, at a common distance, with 700fps compared to 975fps for ACTUAL OBSERVED WIND DRIFT. Or for your "education", I'd even take 850 vs. 975, if you'd rather. I'll be waiting to see it.
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I don't have a wind tunnel, and as you probably know, wind outdoors isn't consistent, at least where I shoot its not, so objective measurements aren't feasible. I will however show you in numerous ballistics calculators like Strelok Pro and Shooter that the drift from 850 FPS compared to 1000 FPS with .22 JSB 18.1 pellets is MORE at the faster speed. Would that satisfy you or are you of the opinion that those ballistics programs aren't accurate? PS., I had never discussed 700 FPS as you well know since you've studied my posts. For the purpose of clarification, lets keep this within a 225 FPS band, say 825 to 1050 FPS...?
Also, I have never said slower is better as an absolute. I have said that in general (oops there I go again), speeds in the 850 to 900 FPS range usually (damn, did it again) are as or more accurate than faster speeds in the 1000 to 1050 FPS range, that wind drift is higher as you go closer to the trans-sonic zone, and the "flatter" argument is inconsequential. I'm also a firm believer in proven science, see articles below
External Ballistics of Pellets
External Ballistics of Slugs
Also, I have never said slower is better as an absolute. I have said that in general (oops there I go again), speeds in the 850 to 900 FPS range usually (damn, did it again) are as or more accurate than faster speeds in the 1000 to 1050 FPS range, that wind drift is higher as you go closer to the trans-sonic zone, and the "flatter" argument is inconsequential. I'm also a firm believer in proven science, see articles below
External Ballistics of Pellets
External Ballistics of Slugs
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WHO SAYS someone other than you "can't hit it". THAT is an ASSUMPTION. And as to the wind drift question I posed above, it is SIMPLE. SHOW ME. I'll still be waiting. I bet I'll be waiting for a LONG TIME.
Leaves out the upper 900fps range, doesn't it? Seems that was specifically mentioned in the original line of posting. Convenient. As to the Strelok question, I'll refer you to some of Ryan Cleckner's videos on long range shooting. I'll take an NSSF instructor and prior military sniper's opinion here. He mentions such things specifically in some of his long range shooting videos. Feel free to EDUCATE YOURSELF, as you stated.
Leaves out the upper 900fps range, doesn't it? Seems that was specifically mentioned in the original line of posting. Convenient. As to the Strelok question, I'll refer you to some of Ryan Cleckner's videos on long range shooting. I'll take an NSSF instructor and prior military sniper's opinion here. He mentions such things specifically in some of his long range shooting videos. Feel free to EDUCATE YOURSELF, as you stated.
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Thanks, and done. Apples to Oranges. Supersonic versus subsonic. Ryans videos mean nothing to us airgunners. But an interesting read if I ever decide to get into powderburners... We can do the upper 900 range also, in fact, lets do a few different speed - wind drift comparisons. So you're good with the ballistic programs being used to demonstrate? FYI for your education, all I've been saying about subsonic external ballistics compared to wind drift is not true for supersonic projectiles...
And yes, you will be waiting a long time... But I'll show you the math anyway. I know the Earth isn't flat, and I don't need to go into outer space to prove it.
Bottom line, looks like we'll have to agree to disagree, and that's fine with me.
And yes, you will be waiting a long time... But I'll show you the math anyway. I know the Earth isn't flat, and I don't need to go into outer space to prove it.
Bottom line, looks like we'll have to agree to disagree, and that's fine with me. Upvote 0
@impactx Sorry for hijacking your thread. We'll move it to a new topic, since we are way off your original OP in rehashing topics that have been already beat to death in previous AGN posts.
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Thanks, and done. Apples to Oranges. Supersonic versus subsonic. Ryans videos mean nothing to us airgunners. But an interesting read if I ever decide to get into powderburners... We can do the upper 900 range also, in fact, lets do a few different speed - wind drift comparisons. So you're good with the ballistic programs being used to demonstrate? FYI for your education, all I've been saying about subsonic external ballistics compared to wind drift is not true for supersonic projectiles...
And yes, you will be waiting a long time... But I'll show you the math anyway. I know the Earth isn't flat, and I don't need to go into outer space to prove it.
STIIILLL WAITING.
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The point is to find the tune that gives you the best accuracy, with enough energy to accomplish your task. Working your way up. Starting as low as your gun allows and increasing till you plateau. Somewhere in there will be your best groups with that ammo. In my opinion whatever stacks those projectiles (pellet or slug) is what you want. Providing it has the FPE needed. I found at 35 yards 980fps stacked .25 cal Hades on top of each other. When I streched the range to 75 on a windy day they spread out a diapointing amount. I found that 880 was much better. I think at the faster speed they were over stabalized by my gun. Now in your gun your results may be different. But don't just copy Joe Blow and then say "He's full of it, and that ammo is crap" do the work with your gun. I may be relatively new to PCPs but I've been shooting for many years. 3 shooters with 3 identical guns have 3 very different pet loads.
Jim
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bandg
STIIILLL WAITING.
Me too! For you to answer the question, do you believe ballistic calculators are real and accurate, or just BS? Still waiting...
STIIILLL WAITING.
Me too! For you to answer the question, do you believe ballistic calculators are real and accurate, or just BS? Still waiting...
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Exactly. But that doesn't fall in line with the view of many that there is basically an "upper limit" where accuracy is lost (certainly possible) and that IT IS IN THE 850-900 RANGE AND CANNOT BE HIGHER (false on it's face, as you point out). BECAUSE it is both gun and pellet dependent (and certainly possibly distance as well), and NOT ON THE SPEED ITSELF ALONE. MOST PELLETS may shoot better below 900. Maybe? Most? At some specific distance? One would have to test the MAJORITY OF PELLETS across the majority of guns to know that. But many DO SHOOT JUST FINE WELL ABOVE 900. Simple.
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The research that Bob Sterne (rsterne) has put out for airgun ballistics is extremely helpful.
Now that he's teamed up with a professional ballistician (a life long in military ballistics research, and in his free time he did airgun ballistics....!
). And that can only be good for us airgunners! 
The BC numbers for JSB domes he tested at different velocities show a general trend that the BC for lighter pellets is better at lower velocities, and for heavier pellets it is better at higher velocities. (I'd love to do the same research on hollow points!)
Bob's diagram helps me think through pellet selection and velocity ranges when testing and adjusting my setup.
Matthias
Now that he's teamed up with a professional ballistician (a life long in military ballistics research, and in his free time he did airgun ballistics....!
). And that can only be good for us airgunners! The BC numbers for JSB domes he tested at different velocities show a general trend that the BC for lighter pellets is better at lower velocities, and for heavier pellets it is better at higher velocities. (I'd love to do the same research on hollow points!)
Bob's diagram helps me think through pellet selection and velocity ranges when testing and adjusting my setup.
Matthias
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Bandg, I think there is an upper limit for accurate pellet speed. I think it is affected by spin rate, drag (both design and atmospheric conditions) so it may vary. I have observed pellet wobble and spiral when the light is right, and my speed too high. Dialing it back right then I saw the pellets fly true. Pellet accuracy really makes my head hurt.
Jim
Jim
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Makes mine hurt too. And I generally agree. See above where I clearly said "certainly possible" in relation to an absolute upper limit for accurate pellet velocity. For each pellet (and probably in relation to each gun), there is probably a point that no one would want to go beyond for reliable accuracy. The question sure seems to be, EXACTLY WHERE IS THAT POINT AND IS IT AN ARBITRARY NUMBER FOR ANY PELLET, OR POSSIBLY A RANGE FOR SPECIFIC GUN/PELLET COMBINATION, OR SOMETHING EVEN LESS "PRECISE"? I DO NOT believe that it is arbitrarily "below 850", or "below 900", or even "below 950". I believe it to be relative to MANY factors, as YOU note. Yes, the BC shown in the chart above is FALLING across that "magic" velocity range for most pellets noted (less so for the heavier pellets as you note and at least one (the heaviest one, interestly) was STILL RISING when stopped. Where does that fall ACTUALLY INDICATE a perceptible drop in accuracy? INTERESTING??? Where would that RISING trace have stopped rising??? ALL RELATIVE???? I think so.
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That is my experiance also. I do not have that many brand of guns, but I have FX guns with both smoothtwist, and smoothtwist X barrels, and also a taipan veteran. All my guns seems to be accurate at low 800s. The closer I get to 900, the more flyers seems to apear.
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That's a great question. Depends on what you're looking for, like with most things....
Strelok Pro and ChairGun Pro (App)(ChairGun Pro is not supported anymore, but still works, a bit buggy.)
▪Both do all your ballistic trajectory calculations, gives you ballistic tables and reticle dope card printouts.
▪Do all conversions including pressures.
▪Truing
▪PBR calculations
▪Many different pellets and guns and setups can be saved (backup possible)
▪GA drag model (besides the standards G1, G7, etc.)
ONLY ChairGun Pro▪Gives you trajectory charts (graphs for up to 4 setups)
▪Maximum possible range at ideal shot angle.
ChairGun Pro for ComputerThis is better than anything else I have seen, an incredible array of calculations. But of course, nothing for the field.
ONLY Strelok Pro▪Huge advantage: Allows you to switch between different pellets and power settings with the same rifle/scope — just select in Strelok the new pellet/ power. ChairGun somehow cannot do that, no easy switching.
▪Is highly customizable.
▪BC calculations (2-velocity and drop methods)
▪Besides the GA drag model, CDR (custom drag models that you can manually enter), and also the option of entering up to 5 different BC's each velocity-dependent.
▪Literally hundreds of reticles, every week the developer adds new reticles.
Strelok (free) and Strelok+ (almost same price as Strelok Pro) have less functions, but just to support the app developer, it's worth getting the full version: Strelok Pro. Exterior Ballisticshttps://sites.google.com/site/scixddevexteriorballistics/home/user-manual
This app has not received any updates recently, but looks very interesting, a lot of functions I have not explored yet.
It has functions that are hard to find elsewhere — like a hit probability calculator:
For example (you enter your own numbers): It calculates for you how statistically likely it is for you to hit your 1.5" kill zone, when your rifle shoots 1" moa, and when your range finder has a potential error of 2y, and when your windestimation skills are as good that you can estimate wind with a ±2mph margin of error.
Some people hate ballistic calculators. I think they are amazing. To laze a pigeon waaay out there, punch in the numbers, dial, and shoot, and.... — HIT! So fascinating!!
Matthias
PS: If there's enough interest, I can give a Strelok Pro class (video conference).And before you ask, no, I don't get any benefits from the developer
— I'm just an excited user (after my frustration with the ChairGun app). Upvote 0
