What is the LEAST hold sensitive, “FULL POWER” spring rifle?

I normally dial in a hunting rifle in holding the fore end gently by the stock screws, regardless of how the gun likes to be held. I do it that way because it’s a versatile hold, I can always lean my arm or wrist on something for support, and as long as your hold is consistent it’s the most important thing.

This year I tried something a little different. I took the extra time to tweak the scope on my R9 using ten shot groups and intentionally switching holds every time, along the entire forearm. I already knew with a consistent hold and good follow through I could probably hit a squirrel in the eye ball with fair consistency, but what I learned is I can keep every pellet inside a 1” circle regardless of my hold (25 yards). I’m talking edge to edge groups a hair less than 1” so I guess that puts my CTC group of any number of shots even 20 or 30 shots about 3/4”-7/8” at 25 yards, with no regard to consistency of hold but otherwise good fundamentals. This is with good ammo. Each different hold might change center of POI by about 1/8”-1/4” at most but also different holds do not group as well as others, so that is why overall it opens up between 3/4” or 7/8”. This is not a tuned gun, it’s a factory gun with nothing other than a trigger adjustment. It has not been chronoed but when compared side by side to the RWS 34 with a Vortek sub-12 kit, my HW hits noticeably harder. 

Now when I do my part my groups are about a third or even a quarter of that size. I just love my buzzy little R9 to death and I am thrilled to learn that I don’t need to worry about how the gun is held out to any reasonable range in the squirrel woods. But how much less hold sensitive is a fixed barrel gun? What can you reasonably expect from an HW97 or an TX200 with a different hold between shots?
 
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All depends on rifle, the power it puts out, the way it is held, way to many variables to say which one....one thing I can say for sure is..the heavier the rifle the more forgiving it is..light weight rifles are far more jumpy, that is why folks tune the power down. Custom tunning can change much of that. Your lucky your rifle is shooting well straight out of the box, some do and some dont.
 
My .22 97K with a PG4 is putting out about 17fpe and it really couldn't care less about how you hold it. It'll go 1/2" CTC @ 25yds all day more often than not just by slapping it down on the bag and shooting. My .177 97K and .177 TX are pretty similar but they don't meet your requirements for full power. Both are tuned down to 11.5 - 11.8fpe. 

All are definitely capable of better with a proper, consistent hold. Hope that helps answer your question
 
The only gun I would see being different to yours in hold sensitivity while maintaining full power would be a sled mounted action like a D54. The sled takes all sensitivity out of the hold, but it’s HEAVY! out in the woods it would be a nightmare. They’re really more suited for bench duties. I think you have your R9 figured out pretty well, and that’s all you need!
 
All depends on rifle, the power it puts out, the way it is held, way to many variables to say which one....one thing I can say for sure is..the heavier the rifle the more forgiving it is..light weight rifles are far more jumpy, that is why folks tune the power down. Custom tunning can change much of that. Your lucky your rifle is shooting well straight out of the box, some do and some dont.

It’s got a couple hundred rounds down the pipe, I wouldn’t call it straight out of the box but it’s as is from the factory.
 
If you want less hold sensitivity then you need to get either the RWS 54, which has none, or get a HW97 and puts a Maccari kit in it. The TX200 is another route. I've owned every springer that Weihrauch makes over the years and if I bought another one it would be the HW97 or the TX200 HC version in 22cal. I've also tuned some seriously nice R9's that were very accurate. The under levers as a general rule will be less hold sensitive than a break barrel at the same power.
 
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For the price of a good high-end springer (easily more than $400) you can buy a $300 PCP and a $50 pump and have much more power and accuracy.

I have tried and sold almost all my springers, and will never go back.

I have bought and sold three of those. They suck. Might be accurate, might even hang with the R9 for 8-12 shots until you lose the sweet spot. Might as well be hold sensitive.

POI changes bouncing around in the truck, that’s what you get with skinny barrels held in by set screws that have to be banded to the air tube for support lol.

I’d rather shoot a Chicom springer than a cheap PCP. Been there and done that.



What is the point of a MOA gun if your poi can change just because you left it leaning in the corner?
 
If you want less hold sensitivity then you need to get either the RWS 54, which has none, or get a HW97 and puts a Maccari kit in it. The TX200 is another route. I've owned every springer that Weihrauch makes over the years and if I bought another one it would be the HW97 or the TX200 HC version in 22cal. I've also tuned some seriously nice R9's that were very accurate. The under levers as a general rule will be less hold sensitive than a break barrel at the same power.

I’m pretty satisfied. I am just asking, what’s there to gain in a fixed barrel gun with regards to hold sensitivity.

@Sqwifugger57 that kitted out HW97 sounds pretty nice. My R9 will do less than a half inch just laying it on a bag, closer to about .3” sometimes better. But it will open up some when I change the way I hold it. Also I seriously doubt it shoots anywhere near as hard as your HW97. If I had to guess, my a R9 is pushing 13-14 fpe.
 
I agree with the rws 54 statement. I shot one and was amazed at how accurate and powerful it is. I also agree that it's heavy as all get out and not very handy as a field rifle. I would like to explain something tho. A fixed barrel springer is not inherently less hold sensitive at all. Perhaps the extra weight helps a bit but other than that it makes no difference. What a fixed barrel does prevent however is barrel droop. That's a problem you already figured out with your r9. Probably just with adjusting the elevation on your turrets but more severe cases require shims or a rail adapter that gives you some extra elevation. Honestly if your shooting as well as you are I don't think you will see much difference in another springer. In fact if you want tighter groups you might have better luck getting it tuned by one of the highly skilled guys here. Motorhead comes to mind but there's several others that do great work. Hold sensitivity is kind of something we all have to deal with or you can eliminate it at the cost of weight and money. Years ago I saw an old FWB that was tuned for power and recoil free as well but dude wanted $2k for it. If his pictures of groups and stated ranges were correct he was getting better accuracy in it that I'm capable of with a high end pcp. At least out to 50 yards or so. Good luck man. Maybe your just looking for a reason to buy a fixed barrel hw or air arms? If that's the case get one you have our permission 😂🤣😁
 
Another 54/56 vote. No worries about shooting up or downhill as questioned earlier. Once the sled is well setup, they are the least hold sensitive full power springer available.

A side benefit is because they are a sidelever you can add a bipod if you wish.

54

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56

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What is the point of a MOA gun if your POI can change just because you left it leaning in the corner?



Bryan, 😄

I love your reasoning! 👍🏼 Well said (unless someone limits their hobby to target shooting and light pesting).



🔶 Of course, not all PCP's come from Sweden.... — where the general business principle seems to be: "Our guns must win as many widely advertised competitions as possible — in order to sell as many guns as possible." = $$$

They figured this works better than "Our guns must go on as many real life hunting trips and kill as many critters there as possible." — Because that type of shooting doesn't get much advertising....

➔ So, I guess that's why they use floating straws as barrels....





🔶 Now, if you go PCP shopping for East European guns — you'll find real life hunterspellet shooting "tanks." 

Best example: Ed of EDgun drove his SUV over one of his rifles, and after putting the quick-mounted scope back on, he proceeded to shoot a MOA group at 55y. Spectacular!! 😄





🔶 Your shooting ability with springers is great! Keep it up!

Matthias
 
I’ll probably get some raised eyebrows from this one. My least hold sensitive springer is the Hatsan 135 in. 22 caliber. It has the weight of an under lever but the weight is in the massive receiver to be one of the most powerful airguns made. This rearward weight makes it well balanced. It sends a .22 caliber, 14.3 grain pellet over 1000 fps. That gets it out of the barrel in a hurry. The shock absorber system also gives a split second of hold sensitive forgiveness. Mine is very accurate and maybe better than most in the accuracy department. My 135 .25 is also very accurate “maybe even a touch more than the .22” but just slower enough as to be not as “hold sensitive” forgiving. Splitting hairs. My HW97 .22 caliber is a great accurate gun but for me it is to heavy for its power level and not balanced well. To much front end weight. Good for the bench mostly.

If one just uses physics it becomes obvious. If the mass of the guns weight is between the shoulder and the pivot point (fore arm hand) then there will be less downward movement after the pivot point (at the muzzle end) as one has to concentrate on keeping the guns muzzle end upward when the movement is snapped forward in a instant. One pound of weight held in a hand at the body is ten pounds of weight at an arms length on the lower back. Balance is key.

Achieving that perfect balance between the guns weight (and where the weight is), velocity (mass of pellet for best toning behavior for that gun), is very tricky. Easy to expect more than possible.
 
For me, my least hold sensitive is my hw97. However, it really just came down to learning the others that were more powerful. Now, I can shoot groups ALMOST indistinguishable between my hw80, hw 97, d48, Diana 34, asp20, and R9. I say ALMOST because I could hand pick some groups, but the 97 still has the tightest groups on average...



For me, not a big fan of the whole "sled" concept....either built into the gun or scope mounts. I tend to abuse things, and for me it's another potential point of failure....I don't need another thing not working....
 
@Raden1942 My R9 has no droop whatsoever. As a matter of fact, with the scope optically centered, POI is only an inch or so off center at 25 yards. I would bet if I tested enough pellets I would find one I could shoot with no scope adjustments from optical center.



@Teber66 is that .25 R9 very effective?

So far it has been but I haven’t shot rabbit sized game with it yet which is the intended purpose I had for it when I purchased it.
 
@Teber66 let me know if you get a chance to test her on grey squirrels. They are the toughest of the small game imo. I shoot a .177 because .22’s don’t seem to exit, my .177 gets a good exit on a hard quartering shot with a heavy pellet. That opens up more shot opportunities. But they seem to have a little more life left in them. The 22’s seem to have a little more “shock” but they don’t have as much range or penetration, so I try to stick to head shots or broadside shots.


I’m sure it’s an absolute wrecking ball for head shots but I am curious how the .25 pellets penetrate that hide over the ribs at R9 power.