What does “hole in hole” mean to you?

Damn Stan, I was all puffed up going to post a one magazine (14 shots) group 18.1 JSB at 50 yards with my .22 Cricket mini Carbine shot today. Then I saw your post and I went limp… It’s “one hole” but certainly not “hole in hole” like yours. Great shooting.



Centercut, there is a big difference between 5-shots and 14-shots groups. I doubt I could better your 14-shot target. I watched you complete at EBR last year, you are a great shot! 

Stan

Thanks Stan. I was very impressed with your 75 yard cards at EBR last year!

That 14 shot group was cherry picked as I shot about 5 other magazines and this was the best. The others were quarter (worst) to penny (second best). This one I ripped off quickly when there was a lull in the winds, 6 mph gusting to 10 mph.

Mike

Mike, I had Martin build me a .30 HP RAW with a custom barrel for EBR but my .22 was shooting really well so I decided to use it (bad decision). I felt good after the 75 yard smi's but blew an O ring in the finals and tried to make it work by filling my gun ever few shots. Everything went to hell. As they say there is always next year, if we can get by this terrible COVID-19.

Stan 

Hi Stan:

You are becoming way TOO SCARY to shhot with!…Next time I see you I will instead invite you to play marbles!  

Have a nice shooting weekend…

Regards,

AZ

PS. Are you in CA or in AZ?….I will be in AZ for a couple of months starting on June…

AZ, you know more about airguns and competition shooting in your little finger than I will ever know. I'm COVID-19 locked down in Hollister California. I don't think I will be getting to Arizona until the first of October unless the situation changes. Will let you know when I can meet you there later this year.

Stan

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Stan, Please keep me posted anytime when you will be around Quail Creek in AZ, I am looking forward to chatting with you, maybe doing some shooting and having a good dinner.

You stay safe and don't relax any precautions that you are taking.

Enjoy the weekend,

AZ

Stan, Please keep me posted anytime when you will be around Quail Creek in AZ, I am looking forward to chatting with you, maybe doing some shooting and having a good dinner.

AZ, I'm looking forward to it also!!!

Stan

That 14 shot group was cherry picked as I shot about 5 other magazines and this was the best. The others were quarter (worst) to penny (second best). This one I ripped off quickly when there was a lull in the winds, 6 mph gusting to 10 mph.

Mike

Mike, I look forward to seeing you at EBR this year.

Stan

I have been a 100, 200 yard centerfire group and score competitor for the last 25 years, I know hole in hole accuracy, we call the small ones a "knot". small ones are measured less than .060 center to center for Five shots. I have shot plenty of them over the years, and I am now competing in Air rifle BR "registered USARB" 25 Meter matches. I believe their targets to represent the accuracy capability of competition air rifles at a distance that is a competitive distance and a distance that is "doable" for the rifles that compete. Therefore every shooter at the line with a competent rifle on a reasonable day has a chance of being the one to win the match and the winner is the best shooter for the day with the best rifle, not the guy that had a lucky break. This is what I consider to be repeatable precision, with the rifle at the distance that the rifle is intended to be used.

I am not knocking your 100 yard scores or groups, I'm not knocking your 80 yard tests, I am only saying that I know what hole in hole accuracy is and I'm used to it and I expect it to be achievable everyday by every rifle at the distance we compete. There fore to compete at a distance where it is highly irregular just isn't to me a true competition. I could go on and on for days showing hole in hole in hole targets that I've shot with centerfire guns at 100 yards, but that's not the point, the point is to compete with an air rifle at a distance where we all expect it from an air rifle.

Sorry, just my take

After I read that I also thought about this also... When I see targets that Mike puts up it's almost always the 25 Meter USARB target. for a reason. You should practice on what you compete, and for others to really grasp or critique your shooting you have to use a target that's familiar. for Centerfire practice I use either the NBRSA group or IBS score target so i can shoot group or score practice, for rimfire I use the IR50 target, and for Air rifle the USARB targets. nothing else, The indians knees on the land O lakes butter box don't get it, birchwood casey shoot and see don't get it, etc. Perfect practice makes perfect. I dont know of a registered group of air rifle shooters that shoot "group or score" beyond 25 Meters... if So when, where and with which target.... because if i were going to compete at 75 yards or 100 yards, I'd get that target and only use that target.

, +1 to you!

I like that shooters can "drive tacks" with their rifles at 50 yards. Heck, I often have trouble driving tacks while holding them with my fingers and hitting them with a hammer Or more often, hitting my thumb.

Now this isn’t an airgun but Is amazing. I think it qualifies for “hole In hole”

Nomojoe mentions that he comes from centerfire Benchrest. I too come from Centerfire and Rimfire benchrest, both group and score and while he mentions that he is having a good time with score, that he uses group size to rate a rifles performance. I do the same. Rifles that regularly group in the .160-.190 range will win most days at local matches. To win at regional or nationals, you need that gun and your best day to coincide. what I find with score shooting is that every shot matters. For instance if I'm shooting group and my first shot for some reason goes in the 8 ring at 3 o'clock, all I have to do is pile 4 more shots on top of it. Like late Gloria Wright said "Group shooting is easy just put your last 3 shots between your first 2". Score shooters will be scrutinized by group shooter because all they have to do is hit all tens, and it can be anywhere on the ten, and a ten isn't that hard to hit. Let me tell them That 8 at 3 o'clock just took them out of the winnings. In score all shots matter. In group only the last four of each group. 

As for Hole in Hole accuracy, we all have our definition of accuracy. I have stacks of targets from centerfire score that are 50-5x, and I have stacks of groups under .100 fired in competition... screamers. My best screamer was an .062" fired at 100 in some crazy mirage. My Dad shot an .088 one time and the guy 2 benches down beat him with an .080... his best group ever, a good group was only good for 2nd place that relay.

I am not impressed with outdoor air rifle groups or scores yet. Indoors things are quite a bit easier. I'm told air rifles pellets are mostly drag stabilized and some spin is necessary but not as important as pellet "skirt" design. Indoors I have shot some amazing groups and scores. But I think using "brakes" to accurately get a pellet to a target is like putting a parachute on a bomb and also expecting to hit a target without guidance. Things will change in time, and I will be there to witness it.