Weighing pellets

 "But logically it gets ever more difficult to realize a demonstrable improvement the better your starting point."

Possibly the most relevant sentence in the thread. But it certainly doesn't discount the possibility of vastly improving the performance of some of those "less desirable" types of pellets, precisely because they aren't already near the top of the heap in consistency.

After writing my last response yesterday evening which directly answered your question about who I am and my personal performance history and how that applies to my stance on pellet sorting…..I took a moment to think about how you would probably respond to that. My conclusion was that you would likely allude to some sort of arrogance on my part. I woke this morning and got a big smile as I read your response that was just as I imagined it. 

You have added absolutely nothing of any value to this thread. You are simply trolling. 

Mike

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You apparently only read the last line of my post. You missed this part. I decided not add it to the previous post because I did not want to make the assumption that I was about to receive your resume'. Although did I fully expect it. Resumes are the last resort of the man who is saying, "It is true because I SAY IT IS TRUE."

Yeah? So how many of those rifles have been shooting sorted pellets?

You see even your fine rifles MIGHT be benefitting from sorted pellets.

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But hey you didn't miss the reference to royalty. As I recently had to tell one of the other "legends" in this game. I see the problem we have here and I know how to fix it. You are becoming angry because I am not proffering the deference you obviously believe your prodigious experience deserves. You want me to accept assertions you make without any empirical support. Apparently that is more than you can deal with. I can fix that. I'll "shut up" and "go stand in the corner"...

Regarding the "You are just trolling." Nope, I am documenting your ability to provide EMPIRICAL evidence to support assertions you make which are OBVIOUSLY wrong. If you could PROVE that sorting did not provide any improvement, you would have. The argument you should be making is whether or not (and when) sorting is worthwhile.

Instead with your own words you have PROVEN that you SELECT pellets by sorting through numerous orders and SHOOTING THEM and buying those which shoot well. All the while swearing sorting is a waste of time.

But whatever ... Let me get back to something which does not feel like I am talking to the King of England.

 "But logically it gets ever more difficult to realize a demonstrable improvement the better your starting point."

Possibly the most relevant sentence in the thread. But it certainly doesn't discount the possibility of vastly improving the performance of some of those "less desirable" types of pellets, precisely because they aren't already near the top of the heap in consistency.

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Exactly... That right there is exactly correct and I suppose Mike wrote it. I'm not going back to find out I'm done dealing with a prom queen.

Don't you forget. Sorting pellets is a waste of time BECAUSE Mike and some of his buddies say it is... Let's not do any science to figure out just how much difference it makes so we can figure out where it might be helpful ...

1mm difference is enough to win a match, isn't it?

Crow with no identity & newly joined only wanting to argue

how many times have you been kicked off this & other forums for Trolling ?

it is times like this when i wish Michael would give us back the negative ability

"You have added absolutely nothing of any value to this thread. You are simply trolling. "

I agree with Mike on this one. While you make some valid points, I don't personally know or have seen evidence of anyone having worked harder or longer to understand why pellets can look good and not be good, as Mike. Does that make him infallible,... no.... but it sure makes the voice of experience valid.

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Don't confuse worthy for true. His opinion and experience INFORMS the science. It does not DEFINE the science.

While we all sort in some manner, whether it be feel in the barrel, tossing bent pellets, batch selection, or more extreme measures, nitpicking at someone who is trying to share good experience seems to show a preference for conflict and not positive contribution.

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Good point. It is easy to think that when two competent people disagree upon a topic. Perhaps I have seen Mike tell us one time too many how pellet sorting is a waste of time with no evidence to back that up. In particular when people have frequently proven that it in fact does make a difference. I think the problem is one of absolutes. It is OBVIOUSLY not true that pellet sorting is absolutely useless. Yet every time someone tries to suggest that Mike is johnny on the spot with a resume and an assertion when all he has to do is show results which prove his point. I think the point he is trying to make is more like what nervoustrg IS MAKING... at least I hope it is.

Nothing I have said here should be misconstrued as me suggesting Mike isn't well informed or competent. If you can show me anywhere I did that, I'll write the apology right now. I did not. No I am not trolling. I have simply fed Mike his own words in a manner which supports the argument that SORTING PELLETS DOES WORK. He is angry about that.

Oh well.

Crow with no identity & newly joined only wanting to argue

how many times have you been kicked off this & other forums for Trolling ?

it is times like this when i wish Michael would give us back the negative ability

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I agree 100%. It was always a good idea but some clown came along and abused that system specifically to deny it to the forum. But by all means you can leave a greenie and say something nasty if it makes you feel better.

No, disagreeing with your hero's does not constitute "wanting to argue".

I have never been kicked off of any forum for Trolling and what I've done here isn't trolling either.

but yeah I also wish he would give us back anonymous negative feedback. It would probably save the moderators a lot of time.

Deja Vu. 

Regardless of the screen name people currently go by, their personalities seem to always shine through. 

Yo and Odoyle. 

Old Spook and Corn Pone and now Old Crow........

(I cannot prove it and could certainly be wrong, as I'm sure Mr Contrary himself will claim, but if I was a betting man......)

I think what OldCrow is saying is that you don’t need to sort pellets to do well in a competition…and I agree with him 100%.

I think what OldCrow is saying is that you don’t need to sort pellets to do well in a competition…and I agree with him 100%.

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Nailed it. Sorting pellets is a technique which obviously improves groups. Unfortunately because you folks are shooting outdoors, with wind. The errors due to wind will almost always totally swamp any benefit you get from it... IOW you will never be able to prove it EITHER way.

Unless you get a calm day.

The squirrel hunter wanting to extend his range ten yards, however; may well find he can use sorting to get that range from a pellet which is compromised with a big hollow point.

Thanks Mike for getting us back on topic. Sorry for the rough handling. Have a great day.

I look at it like this. Sorting as a practice to remove human induced variable is a good thing. People posting what their methods and equipment achieve only HELP the discipline. Like a library. Someday someone might READ and try something and have success because of others efforts. It is a personal choice. Those individuals NOT sorting might be missing an element that is problematic to their over all quality of air gun shooting. But also choosing to not sort or engage in intensive methods at refinement probably don't suffer the side effects of such actions. They are happy with the route in airgunning and results. As for sorting aiding in competitive shooting precision. Yes it does help. Just how much of it you have to do to find or establish evidence or success who's to say. And if you change the way you do so will skue results also. I personally made the choice not to. I'm happy with what I do now with all of life's elements creeping in. Just running on the happy mode setting before my time runs out. BE WELL, all 

I look at it like this. Sorting as a practice to remove human induced variable is a good thing. People posting what their methods and equipment achieve only HELP the discipline. Like a library. Someday someone might READ and try something and have success because of others efforts. It is a personal choice. Those individuals NOT sorting might be missing an element that is problematic to their over all quality of air gun shooting. But also choosing to not sort or engage in intensive methods at refinement probably don't suffer the side effects of such actions. They are happy with the route in airgunning and results. As for sorting aiding in competitive shooting precision. Yes it does help. Just how much of it you have to do to find or establish evidence or success who's to say. And if you change the way you do so will skue results also. I personally made the choice not to. I'm happy with what I do now with all of life's elements creeping in. Just running on the happy mode setting before my time runs out. BE WELL, all

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I don't view sorting as removing the "human induced variable". I view it as a way to POSSIBLY remove that odd unexpected error that may show up even when the human does everything as well as he can.

After lapping a barrel this morning I weight sorted 25 JSB RD monsters to one tenth of a grain and put them in a tin. I then took 25 of the rejected pellets that ranged to approximately .6 grains difference from highest to lowest and put them in another tin. I shot 2 consecutive groups of 25 shots at 50y with just a center hold and no shooter adjustments for wind.

Bull 13 is the pellets rejected from the weight sort and bull 14 is the weight sorted pellets. The rejects are actually a better group with less vertical…but really it’s insignificant. Does this prove that rejected pellets are better than weight sorted pellets to 1/10 gr? No, but it certainly doesn’t indicate that weight sorting is worth my time, either. This small test mimics the results I’ve seen every time I’ve tried. I don’t see any real difference and when the test was carried out over the long term, the difference became even less. The last group is 25 from the tin with my best wind hold adjustments. I did not try to get the group in the center, but just tried to get shot 2-25 as close to the first as possible.

Mike 





Last summer when I shot a lot of 100y BR cards…I saw the same trend. I’m certain I made a post about that with results and pics, but I really don’t care to look for it.

Mike 

Here is another 25 shot group adjusted for wind at 50y and some 5 shots as well. See if you can identify the weight sorted to a tenth of a grain groups. I’ll give you a hint….it’s not the 25 shot group.


 

I think what OldCrow is saying is that you don’t need to sort pellets to do well in a competition…and I agree with him 100%.

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Nailed it. Sorting pellets is a technique which obviously improves groups. Unfortunately because you folks are shooting outdoors, with wind. The errors due to wind will almost always totally swamp any benefit you get from it... IOW you will never be able to prove it EITHER way.

Unless you get a calm day.

The squirrel hunter wanting to extend his range ten yards, however; may well find he can use sorting to get that range from a pellet which is compromised with a big hollow point.

Thanks Mike for getting us back on topic. Sorry for the rough handling. Have a great day.

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I dunno Mike, seems like you are proving exactly what we agreed upon.

At the risk of calling the truth to the front of the room, the game you guys are playing is almost ENTIRELY about doping wind. At the distances you are shooting wind drift for a 1 mph wind is usually measured in centimeters. 

Any advantage you see from actually sorting pellets (and methinks 1/10 grain is just being silly) is going to be swamped by errors made in doping the wind. You are taking a rifle/pellet combination which can shoot MOA or better at 50 yards and improving the groups by perhaps an eighth of an inch. Mind you I am talking about rolling pellets not weighing them. You have wind drift that is five times that ON YOUR BEST DAY.

You will have to shoot perhaps a hundred groups to measure the improvement using that approach.  IOW like someone else said in a different thread. Your test bed isn't accurate enough to measure the delta, at that range outdoors. That's kind of ironic isn't it?