We must teach the children

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Saltlake58

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Apr 9, 2015
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Utah, United States
San Diego police killed a 15 year old student at a school when he leveled a BB gun at the officers. Yes the child was stupid, but did anyone teach him about gun safety, or was everyone in California too scared to touch a gun, so was unwilling to teach the student that even replica guns can be dangerous, because they are, very accurate REPLICAS?

​Given, there are probably many factors feeding into this, that might include poverty, general teenager stupidity, school officials that were so limited by the courts they could not function, general anti gun sentiment that now keeps people from learning how to handle a gun safely, or even suicide by Cop, but the end result was the death of a student.

​Being that the incident took place in California in the most anti-gun state, and probably one of the most anti-gun regions of the state, I suspect (with of course, no evidence) he bought the gun at the local Walmart or other big box, and stupidly took it to school. Even more stupidly, thinking, hey, it's just a BB gun, no one gets hurt with one of these!

​He then leveled the gun at an officer, thinking the officer could tell the difference between a real gun and a replica. The officers couldn't tell the difference, and did what they were trained to do.

​The Anti's will simply say, NO ONE SHOULD HAVE ANY KIND OF GUN, EVER! and that will solve all problems. When a simpler solution is to train our children to handle a weapon properly, and most important of all, dare I say it, BE OBEDIENT to people in authority, especially when they have guns.

​Please, no comments about Where was the kid's father, general impact of the welfare state, or anything critical of the officers. Could teaching the children of Gun Safety have prevented this? After all, the student was 15, he should have been mature enough to know the consequences, if he'd been taught.

 
Why no criticism of the officers? So you're telling me using your words "did what they were trained to do" allows the absolute immunity from examination of their actions?
As a former Deputy Sheriff question just how exactly did a 15 yr old get into position to point a B.B. Gun at the officers in the 1st place. In my entire law enforcement career I always had the upper hand [PERIOD]. Never once did I allow a weapon to be drawn and brought up to be but into action.

I often read these bs cover stories about using deadly force where if you're doing what you have been trained just how does a 15 yr old kid out position fully trained officers so much that their out is use of deadly force.

I don't care that the general civilian population just tends to let officers get away with this crap but there seems to be to many scary officers that shoot first and then think. Maybe if they thought first they wouldn't have to even draw their guns in the first place.
We used to say if you're scared just say you're scared and deal with it, but don't just reach for your gun because you're scared, nothing good ever comes from that.
One of the last calls I responded to someone trying to break into home middle of the night. Partner goes left I go right, see subject in dark, he doesn't see me, I take cover scream for him to drop whatever in his right hand slowly, Partner from covered position shouts Gun, now thing get really serious but in no way were either of us in harms way do to properly positioning ourselves.

We could of easily shot this guy, but it turned out to be the homeowner who after calling 911 decided to grab a gun and go out and handle it himself. I have never cursed anyone out to such a level, as I almost shot this clown over stupidity, his but I don't know how I would of lived with myself had I, and that's why I was so angry.

Yeah dumb kid with BB gun, scared officers wearing body armor, one of these should be held to a higher accountability.

I know there are many LEO types that read this forum I'll defend good police action all the time, but will also point to questionable performance and this one smells a little 🐟...
 
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"kkarmical"Why no criticism of the officers? So you’re telling me using your words “did what they were trained to do” allows the absolute immunity from examination of their actions?
As a former Deputy Sheriff question just how exactly did a 15 yr old get into position to point a B.B. Gun at the officers in the 1st place. In my entire law enforcement career I always had the upper hand [PERIOD]. Never once did I allow a weapon to be drawn and brought up to be but into action.
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Maybe you just got lucky in always getting the upper hand. Everyone, and I mean everyone, including you, screws up once in a while. Nobody is one hundred percent one hundred percent of the time. That is what training is about. Once training kicks in, it's all about the quality of that training.

We do not have any evidence that the officers acted in any way illegally or even imprudently and you making the assumption that they did speaks volumes. 

Poor training might have a part in this incident; however, at the end of the day, some stupid with a replica weapon pointed it at officers. Then he died. That is exactly what is supposed to happen in a world where you can't tell a real weapon from a replica weapon. As someone else said, "Darwinism at it's finest." Tough sheite.

Also You have to be 18 to buy a BB gun in a Walmart in California. Non-Powder Guns in California[/QUOTE]http://smartgunlaws.org/non-powder-guns-in-california/embed/
 
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"oldspook"
"kkarmical"Why no criticism of the officers? So you’re telling me using your words “did what they were trained to do” allows the absolute immunity from examination of their actions?
As a former Deputy Sheriff question just how exactly did a 15 yr old get into position to point a B.B. Gun at the officers in the 1st place. In my entire law enforcement career I always had the upper hand [PERIOD]. Never once did I allow a weapon to be drawn and brought up to be but into action.
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Maybe you just got lucky in always getting the upper hand. Everyone, and I mean everyone, including you, screws up once in a while. Nobody is one hundred percent one hundred percent of the time. That is what training is about. Once training kicks in, it's all about the quality of that training.

We do not have any evidence that the officers acted in any way illegally or even imprudently and you making the assumption that they did speaks volumes. 

Poor training might have a part in this incident; however, at the end of the day, some stupid with a replica weapon pointed it at officers. Then he died. That is exactly what is supposed to happen in a world where you can't tell a real weapon from a replica weapon. As someone else said, "Darwinism at it's finest." Tough sheite.

Also You have to be 18 to buy a BB gun in a Walmart in California. Non-Powder Guns in California
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http://smartgunlaws.org/non-powder-guns-in-california/embed/[/QUOTE]

Looking at this picture they rolled right up to him and got drawn on while getting out of their car, then they popped him.
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imrs.php


Not having all the evidence, seems to me that more space would of provided more options, but I'll give them they probably had no choice to shoot, but maybe just maybe if they would of used the PA and allowed more space between them, they could of came to another solution. I mean this is text book on what not to do, and the fact that one of the officers was a 28 year veteran, HE Should of handled this situation more serious. But this is covered under basic patrol, how to interview a subject/suspect. You can't just go rolling up, I'm sorry, they started it off wrong.

I don't believe in luck when it's talked about the way you imply my being lucky. I just always was in the position where I called the direction the confrontation went. 

I probably would of buzzed him with the car, causing him to tip his play, then car behind me would of tail whipped him, few broken bones, they'll heal, then they could of found out what the hell was troubling this poor kid, as somewhere something was seriously wrong in this young man's life.
 
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"kkarmical"
"oldspook"
"kkarmical"Why no criticism of the officers? So you’re telling me using your words “did what they were trained to do” allows the absolute immunity from examination of their actions?
As a former Deputy Sheriff question just how exactly did a 15 yr old get into position to point a B.B. Gun at the officers in the 1st place. In my entire law enforcement career I always had the upper hand [PERIOD]. Never once did I allow a weapon to be drawn and brought up to be but into action.
Click to expand...
Maybe you just got lucky in always getting the upper hand. Everyone, and I mean everyone, including you, screws up once in a while. Nobody is one hundred percent one hundred percent of the time. That is what training is about. Once training kicks in, it's all about the quality of that training.

We do not have any evidence that the officers acted in any way illegally or even imprudently and you making the assumption that they did speaks volumes. 

Poor training might have a part in this incident; however, at the end of the day, some stupid with a replica weapon pointed it at officers. Then he died. That is exactly what is supposed to happen in a world where you can't tell a real weapon from a replica weapon. As someone else said, "Darwinism at it's finest." Tough sheite.

Also You have to be 18 to buy a BB gun in a Walmart in California. Non-Powder Guns in California
Click to expand...
http://smartgunlaws.org/non-powder-guns-in-california/embed/
Click to expand...


Looking at this picture they rolled right up to him and got drawn on while getting out of their car, then they popped him.
.
imrs.php


Not having all the evidence, seems to me that more space would of provided more options, but I'll give them they probably had no choice to shoot, but maybe just maybe if they would of used the PA and allowed more space between them, they could of came to another solution. I mean this is text book on what not to do, and the fact that one of the officers was a 28 year veteran, HE Should of handled this situation more serious. But this is covered under basic patrol, how to interview a subject/suspect. You can't just go rolling up, I'm sorry, they started it off wrong.

I don't believe in luck when it's talked about the way you imply my being lucky. I just always was in the position where I called the direction the confrontation went. 

I probably would of buzzed him with the car, causing him to tip his play, then car behind me would of tail whipped him, few broken bones, they'll heal, then they could of found out what the hell was troubling this poor kid, as somewhere something was seriously wrong in this young man's life.[/QUOTE]
Luck is luck. Time and chance happen to all men. You can make most of your luck, you can not make all of it. You got lucky, call it whatever you want.

That said, hind sight is 20-20, if and only if you have all the facts. We don't.

Anyway that wasn't the OPs point and we have hijacked his thread.
 
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That's like saying a Doctor is lucky with every successful operation. A Lawyer is just Lucky to win a case, a Pilot is just lucky every time they land a plane, etc..
I do believe in luck though, but you not knowing me at all call me just lucky, that's a borderline insult given all the hard work and training I went through.

I don't view this as a hijack one bit, just a open discussion on a terrible matter, the fact that there was a BB gun gets a response.

But the much larger issue is what could have possibly driven this young man at 15 years of age to this point? 

 
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This is bullpoop armchair quarterbacking, I'm sorry but the fact is you wasn't the one facing the gun.
Add to the fact that officers have become a target and tensions are at a all time high.... 


Things have gotten way out of hand and gun education has nothing to do with it. 
15 years old if I screwed up I would still get my ass whooped now a 15 year old can make a phone call and get his parents thrown in jail because his dad took a switch to him
 
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Initial reports are probable Suicide by Cop. Student made the 911 call, states suspect has no weapon. Police arrive, student draws weapon and points at cop. Cops make SEVERAL commands to drop the weapon, he continues to walk towards police. Police shoot.

​OK, so if initial reports hold, we should get off the cops back, as none of us were there and none of us really know, it's all speculation.

​Yes, there's a question about what would drive this young man to commit suicide and use others for the deed. However, we can't do anything about that situation now, except try to prevent anything similar from happening to our own children or friends.

​Teach your children about guns, and teach them that police can't tell the difference between air guns and powder burners, so if you point an air gun at the cops, you don't get credit for it being a BB or pellet gun.

​I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around for the situation in San Diego, but we must do all we can to prevent another situation like this where one of our children or friends may be the person killed.

WE MUST TEACH OUR CHILDREN!
 
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"kkarmical"That's like saying a Doctor is lucky with every successful operation. A Lawyer is just Lucky to win a case, a Pilot is just lucky every time they land a plane, etc..
I do believe in luck though, but you not knowing me at all call me just lucky, that's a borderline insult given all the hard work and training I went through.

I don't view this as a hijack one bit, just a open discussion on a terrible matter, the fact that there was a BB gun gets a response.

But the much larger issue is what could have possibly driven this young man at 15 years of age to this point? 


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Would you say that the doctor doing everything right, having done everything right, was unlucky if the patient stroked on the table and died anyway? That is luck, fate, kismet whatever you want to call it. Would you say that the pilot landing a plane which had been properly inspected and maintained but which blew a tire on landing and crashed was unlucky? It happens. You can call it whatever you want. Time and chance happen to every man, even you. Let me suggest that you are not the only person who has done a lot of hard work and training. If your skin is so thin that you are going to get your panties in a bunch because someone disagrees with you and calls you lucky it is probably a good thing that you left off being a peace officer.

Regarding the larger issue... Yeah, like I said we hijacked the OPs post and his point. The larger issue is societal and sadly it is the kind of issue which plagues the first world and is literally unheard of in third world hell holes. This incident is symptomatic of much larger societal issues which will not resolve themselves until we have produced an entire generation of children who embrace personal responsibility.
 
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"Willie14228"This is bullpoop armchair quarterbacking, I'm sorry but the fact is you wasn't the one facing the gun.
Add to the fact that officers have become a target and tensions are at a all time high.... 


Things have gotten way out of hand and gun education has nothing to do with it. 
15 years old if I screwed up I would still get my ass whooped now a 15 year old can make a phone call and get his parents thrown in jail because his dad took a switch to him

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Not bs armchair quarterbacking, just merely analyzing the situation from another viewpoint than yours. 

Police tensions have been screwed up my entire life, I'm 50yrs+, so I've seen more than my share of questionable police shootings.

I've been in situations where I could have lawfully shot but didn't, so please so forgive me if I just don't take the officers side automatically.

Also if the only way you can get your point across to a 15 yr old is by putting your hands on them and knocking a little sense into them, you have failed as a parent and deserve what the law have in store for you.

Also I did read the Suicide by cops thing which was why I included what could have been so terrible in this young man's life that he had no one he could turn to.
Not too long ago a person I had a business relationship with just up and killed them self, I still just don't understand the pressure life puts on some that feel the only way out is death.

This is goes way past just teaching them gun this or that. Sometimes just being there for them listening to them and just giving them a little love may work, just don't wait until they're 15 yrs old to start doing it.

There is a whole lot of healing that community will have to go through, right before graduation, prom and all that poor kids.

Officers too, no one starts the day hoping to have to kill a 15 yr old with what turns out to be a BB gun, that's got to be a heavy burden too.

No one wins here.



 
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"oldspook"
"kkarmical"That's like saying a Doctor is lucky with every successful operation. A Lawyer is just Lucky to win a case, a Pilot is just lucky every time they land a plane, etc..
I do believe in luck though, but you not knowing me at all call me just lucky, that's a borderline insult given all the hard work and training I went through.

I don't view this as a hijack one bit, just a open discussion on a terrible matter, the fact that there was a BB gun gets a response.

But the much larger issue is what could have possibly driven this young man at 15 years of age to this point? 


Click to expand...
Would you say that the doctor doing everything right, having done everything right, was unlucky if the patient stroked on the table and died anyway? That is luck, fate, kismet whatever you want to call it. Would you say that the pilot landing a plane which had been properly inspected and maintained but which blew a tire on landing and crashed was unlucky? It happens. You can call it whatever you want. Time and chance happen to every man, even you. Let me suggest that you are not the only person who has done a lot of hard work and training. If your skin is so thin that you are going to get your panties in a bunch because someone disagrees with you and calls you lucky it is probably a good thing that you left off being a peace officer.

Regarding the larger issue... Yeah, like I said we hijacked the OPs post and his point. The larger issue is societal and sadly it is the kind of issue which plagues the first world and is literally unheard of in third world hell holes. This incident is symptomatic of much larger societal issues which will not resolve themselves until we have produced an entire generation of children who embrace personal responsibility.
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You can try and spin things all you want, but when you expand the scope of my thought to make your point then it isn't my thought at all.

After seeing first hand a couple of friends loose their lives in the line, one day
I got up and wasn't feeling it anymore, so I walked away from it, I could of easily accepted a detective shield and put in 20, but walked away.

I Gave up a very long time ago caring what anyone outside my life's circle says about me + I haven't wore any type of underwear even longer, thus no panties to bunch here.
I'm just trying to understand just where you guys are coming from through open conversation.

It's not heard of in 3rd world because it doesn't cost as much there and both
parents aren't forced to have jobs leaving their kids to be raised by nannies and school teachers.

 
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What leads to things like this happening? Lots of things but generally all of those things point to a self-indulgent society which is more interested in having the freedom to do what it wants than the freedom to do the right thing.

A long time ago a car salesman who has probably left this world by now told me about the first time his father saw a television. The man told me that his father sat down in front of that TV for a couple of hours and when he got up he said, "That is the worst thing that has ever happened to this country." When I was raising my own children I recall a statistic that children spent ten times as many hours each week watching TV as they did talking to their parents. It was true, that generation was raised by Sesame Street and Miami Vice with plenty of MTV thrown in for good measure. We wonder how they lost their way and let their own children be raised by the Internet. We weren't very far sighted if you ask me. Why does it now surprise us to see a society that has abandoned the children to raise themselves?

Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo was right.

What can we do to fix it? Just my opinion but we are asking that question a bit too late in the game. We have abdicated the responsibility of raising our children to an educational system which is owned and operated by the state. We have then tied the hands of those educators and told them not to punish little Billy because he is sensitive. We embraced a form of "social justice" which does not preach love but tolerance. There is a huge difference. Love does not encourage someone to lie to themselves about themselves. Tolerance demands that we allow exactly that.

One of the best videos I've ever seen on this topic:



 
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 I am not so sure we are "back on subject". I did not have a dog in this hunt but see two very different issues. When you flesh out the details you can get to the core of the tragedy.

1. A 15 year old whose intelligence is yet to be determined but probably was not only above average but also completely understood the ramifications of pointing a gun at the police. We probably will see that he orchestrated this event with some precision.

2. Police tactics can and should be subject to scrutiny and change if things go haywire.

Gun training, state of origin, Parenting, corporal punishment, the good old days, are playing minor parts in the conversation regarding the rapid unfolding of this action. 
Someone bent on getting shot will not OBEY because they were taught. They won't not point a gun even if they were taught. They wont do many things we want if they are suicidal or disturbed. So we are back to figuring how to diffuse the scene and save the Kid and the Cops. Not cheering because the gene pool is cleaned up or he shoulda been switched.

Sorry if I got carried away.

 
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"socaloldman" I am not so sure we are "back on subject". I did not have a dog in this hunt but see two very different issues. When you flesh out the details you can get to the core of the tragedy.

1. A 15 year old whose intelligence is yet to be determined but probably was not only above average but also completely understood the ramifications of pointing a gun at the police. We probably will see that he orchestrated this event with some precision.

2. Police tactics can and should be subject to scrutiny and change if things go haywire.

Gun training, state of origin, Parenting, corporal punishment, the good old days, are playing minor parts in the conversation regarding the rapid unfolding of this action. 
Someone bent on getting shot will not OBEY because they were taught. They won't not point a gun even if they were taught. They wont do many things we want if they are suicidal or disturbed. So we are back to figuring how to diffuse the scene and save the Kid and the Cops. Not cheering because the gene pool is cleaned up or he shoulda been switched.

Sorry if I got carried away.


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Clearly we are back on topic.

Regarding your point number one, if he was suicidal then the last people who should have addressed the issue were the police. If he was suicidal someone else should have gotten to him months, maybe years before he was standing in front of police officers pointing what looked like a weapon.

Regarding your point number two, of course police tactics should be examined, improved, and updated as experience dictates. Pushing this off onto police is as convenient as pushing off the raising of our children onto teachers. It is a knee jerk reaction to something which (if correct and he was suicidal) should have been addressed by someone else LONG before he was standing in the middle of a street executing suicide by cop.

You are also making assumptions here which are not in evidence. We don't know why the kid did what he did. Maybe he was a gang banger. Maybe he was just turned down for a date at the prom. Who knows?

Regarding the gene pool comment I made, maybe it was too harsh. I guess one could call it a knee jerk reaction to what we see in the news every day. Clearly it feels better to believe the young man was suicidal rather than just arrogant and stupid. My experience tells me that there are a lot more arrogant and stupid people in general roaming the world today than there are suicidal ones. One thing though I have not seen yet is evidence as to what he was actually doing standing in the middle of a street with what appeared to be a weapon. Maybe with a few more facts we can decide that I really am just a heartless old bastard. ;)
 
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"oldspook"
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Regarding the gene pool comment I made, maybe it was too harsh. I guess one could call it a knee jerk reaction to what we see in the news every day. Clearly it feels better to believe the young man was suicidal rather than just arrogant and stupid. My experience tells me that there are a lot more arrogant and stupid people in general roaming the world today than there are suicidal ones. One thing though I have not seen yet is evidence as to what he was actually doing standing in the middle of a street with what appeared to be a weapon. Maybe with a few more facts we can decide that I really am just a heartless bastard. ;)
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The news story I snagged the picture from says he called and reported himself, using the police to aide his suicide. Another article says that the police rolled up and were drawn on as they got out their cars... hmm someone in this thread said something like that. They have body cam's & vehicle cams so at some point the footage will get out, it always does.
Which again brings me to maybe if they would have not just rolled up on a subject talking to him from the car, basic patrol no-no's that they teach at any POST - Police Academy. Just maybe if they had positioned themselves to effectively interview where they were in the position of control, which can not be obtained while sitting in a car, unless you're using the car as a weapon.
Just how am I going to cover someone while sitting in a car, you have to get out, always have rain or shine night or day 100% always get out of the car...Or if you're staying in the car position it in a manner where you're in clear view of the subject, just in case subject goes suspect.. I kid you not, they teach this stuff with data compiled by the Justice Department on officer involved shooting, and also in instances of officer fatalities, what went wrong type of stuff.




 
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