We can send a man to the moon. WHY CAN'T WE MAKE A SCOPE MAGNUM SPRINGER PROOF !

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For whatever it's worth, not shooting at Max magnification seems to have helped both of my springer guns keep from busting UTG reticles.

I went through 4 of them before figuring this out. They are 3-9x scopes and I now shoot at 6-8x, only using 9x for sighting in. 3000+ shots later I am still perfectly zeroed and haven't busted another reticle. 

Before I started doing this I was shooting on 9x constantly, and blowing the reticles out about every other tin of pellets.
 
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For whatever it's worth, not shooting at Max magnification seems to have helped both of my springer guns keep from busting UTG reticles.

I went through 4 of them before figuring this out. They are 3-9x scopes and I now shoot at 6-8x, only using 9x for sighting in. 3000+ shots later I am still perfectly zeroed and haven't busted another reticle. 

Before I started doing this I was shooting on 9x constantly, and blowing the reticles out about every other tin of pellets.
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Interesting. I'm using a UTG 3-9 Hunter right now and I have it set at 6X. The reticles are quite thick on this scope and hopefully they will last.
 
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Bought this scope and installed it on my Sig today.

https://www.amazon.com/UTG-3-9X40-Hunter-36-color-Mil-dot/dp/B00EAI9ICE/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1545695479&sr=8-6&keywords=leapers+scope

Did some testing at 40ft. Took me a little time to figure out why my groups were spreading. The white 3 shot test group made me think it might be a objective focus (parallax) issue. I had the objective focus set at 10yrs. When I checked for how much parallax error there was it was close to one inch of crosshair movement. Adjusted focus until no crosshair movement detected at 40ft. Then shot two more 3 shot groups on the yellow packaging material. The left group was with unsized Sig Wraith 12.35gr. The right 3 shot group was with the same pellet only sized using my .217" die. So far, so good, with this scope.



1545744748_16002883545c22316cdd0b31.67321199_20181224_155017.jpg

 
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If I'm not mistaken, both UTG and Centerpoint offer lifetime warranties on their scopes. I've never broken a scope but if I did I'm going to test the warranity. I have a Centerpoint scope on my D460 and it's a 24 fpe gun and it's doing well. Granted, I don't shoot it that much but so far, so good.
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This scope has very thick crosshairs so we will see if it withstands the Sigs punishment.
 
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? could be "why cant we build a springer that doesnt break scopes"



And the answer is.................... we can!



99% of "scope breaking springers" can be made to not break scopes and shoot at the same power level. Magnum gas tram's of old, RWS48/54 , Gamo may or may not break scopes out of the box ( or after tinkering) but properly tuned and any decent "springer rated" scope is just fine forever. Piston slam & other recoil effecting issues are normally present in a scope killer and easily corrected.

Not too sure what it would take to get your rig working properly but if it can not be done it is a design flaw with the rifle not every scope made.



John


 
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? could be "why cant we build a springer that doesnt break scopes"



And the answer is.................... we can!



99% of "scope breaking springers" can be made to not break scopes and shoot at the same power level. Magnum gas tram's of old, RWS48/54 , Gamo may or may not break scopes out of the box ( or after tinkering) but properly tuned and any decent "springer rated" scope is just fine forever. Piston slam & other recoil effecting issues are normally present in a scope killer and easily corrected.

Not too sure what it would take to get your rig working properly but if it can not be done it is a design flaw with the rifle not every scope made.



John

Click to expand...

I can both agree and disagree with your points. Springers can be tuned for a smoother performance that might eliminate some harsh firing characteristics but never be made to perform like a PCP. Piston slam is exacerbated by poor fitting or too light of pellet. I had a Beeman RX1 (HW90) that went through a Beeman performed Super Tune that improved performance but the gun was still what it was. A gas-spring air rifle. It's just the way the physics ball bounces. My Beeman Crow Magnum III (Theoben Eliminator) was a $1K well built rifle right out of the box and no amount of fine tuning would have made it any less hard on scopes than it was.
 
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I owned a R1 in .177cal. It was tame compared to my Beeman Crow Magnum III (Theoben Eliminator) and the Sig ASP20. The R1 in .177cal launched light pellets around 980fps. The tag attached to my ASP20 trigger said 1400fps in .177cal and 1044fps in .22. I'm getting 1030fps with a 10.3gr .22 pellet. I use to get pinch blisters on my shoulder from my Theoben. The Sig is not quite as bad but it tries real hard. LOL !
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That's some killer performance right there. Recently I've been eyeballing the ASP20 and might make it my first air gun in .22cal. If I do it'll likely wear a Burris.



ETA: I also never use my variables at max power. I've always chosen something in the 4-12 range and always use the scope on 7x, only powering up to use it as a spotting scope. I have no idea if that's what allows the scopes to live for years or not. 
 
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I owned a R1 in .177cal. It was tame compared to my Beeman Crow Magnum III (Theoben Eliminator) and the Sig ASP20. The R1 in .177cal launched light pellets around 980fps. The tag attached to my ASP20 trigger said 1400fps in .177cal and 1044fps in .22. I'm getting 1030fps with a 10.3gr .22 pellet. I use to get pinch blisters on my shoulder from my Theoben. The Sig is not quite as bad but it tries real hard. LOL !
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That's some killer performance right there. Recently I've been eyeballing the ASP20 and might make it my first air gun in .22cal. If I do it'll likely wear a Burris.



ETA: I also never use my variables at max power. I've always chosen something in the 4-12 range and always use the scope on 7x, only powering up to use it as a spotting scope. I have no idea if that's what allows the scopes to live for years or not.
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The one thing I don't like about the Sig is the location of the safety. It's in a awkward location and not easy to slide. For hunting I like a safety that you don't have to look at to disengage to fire.
 
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? could be "why cant we build a springer that doesnt break scopes"



And the answer is.................... we can!



99% of "scope breaking springers" can be made to not break scopes and shoot at the same power level. Magnum gas tram's of old, RWS48/54 , Gamo may or may not break scopes out of the box ( or after tinkering) but properly tuned and any decent "springer rated" scope is just fine forever. Piston slam & other recoil effecting issues are normally present in a scope killer and easily corrected.

Not too sure what it would take to get your rig working properly but if it can not be done it is a design flaw with the rifle not every scope made.



John

Click to expand...

I am assuming that the killer is when the piston slams into the end of the cylinder?

How does one go about softening that blow?

Here's a question that I've always wondered about.......When the piston hits the stop has the pellet already left the muzzle, or is it still on its way down the barrel?
 
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I am assuming that the killer is when the piston slams into the end of the cylinder?

How does one go about softening that blow?

Click to expand...

With the ZR mount the piston lands while the scope is somewhere in the middle of the slide so the hardest hit is not transferred to the scope. 

Go to 1:14 of this video for a slomo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBLiIeoxGTg


 
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I ordered one of the knock offs also Ill have it in a couple weeks. I can at least get some good pics up for you guys that are curious about differences and my opinion of it. I won't be able to compare as I dont have the ZR, but I can at least determine overall quality.
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I would love to see picks of the one you get and your impressions.
 
Upvote 0
? could be "why cant we build a springer that doesnt break scopes"



And the answer is.................... we can!



99% of "scope breaking springers" can be made to not break scopes and shoot at the same power level. Magnum gas tram's of old, RWS48/54 , Gamo may or may not break scopes out of the box ( or after tinkering) but properly tuned and any decent "springer rated" scope is just fine forever. Piston slam & other recoil effecting issues are normally present in a scope killer and easily corrected.

Not too sure what it would take to get your rig working properly but if it can not be done it is a design flaw with the rifle not every scope made.



John

Click to expand...

I am assuming that the killer is when the piston slams into the end of the cylinder?

How does one go about softening that blow?

Here's a question that I've always wondered about.......When the piston hits the stop has the pellet already left the muzzle, or is it still on its way down the
Click to expand...
 
Upvote 0
? could be "why cant we build a springer that doesnt break scopes"



And the answer is.................... we can!



99% of "scope breaking springers" can be made to not break scopes and shoot at the same power level. Magnum gas tram's of old, RWS48/54 , Gamo may or may not break scopes out of the box ( or after tinkering) but properly tuned and any decent "springer rated" scope is just fine forever. Piston slam & other recoil effecting issues are normally present in a scope killer and easily corrected.

Not too sure what it would take to get your rig working properly but if it can not be done it is a design flaw with the rifle not every scope made.



John

Click to expand...

I am assuming that the killer is when the piston slams into the end of the cylinder?

How does one go about softening that blow?

Here's a question that I've always wondered about.......When the piston hits the stop has the pellet already left the muzzle, or is it still on its way down the barrel?
Click to expand...

As far as actually softening the blow ? You can't ! Other than using heavier pellets that fit properly. Altitude also effects the level of piston slam. Thinner air means less air cushioning effect.

I think the pellet still has not left the barrel by the time the piston reaches the end of compression stroke. That's what makes springers difficult to shoot accurately.
 
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The atmosphere is comprised of gasses, gasses can be compressed. The compressed gasses are what moves the pellet but it is also what keeps the piston from slamming the end of the compression chamber. Piston races forward compressing air, as it compresses it slows down and the pressure goes up, pellet begins to move. Pellet moves allowing piston to continue to move until it reaches the end of the chamber. In magnum rifles the piston can actually rebound off of the compressed air charge. This rebounding and the compression chamber pressure should keep the piston from impacting the end of the chamber. If the piston in an air rifle impacts the end of the chamber something isn't right and needs to be corrected.

What wrecks scopes is the violence of the opposite and equal reactions of the rifle components the scope is attached to overcoming the strength of the scope's internal components. The more energy released during the firing cycle the harder it is on the optics. I don't buy claims that hi powered magnum springers are smoother or have a more gentle cycle than others such as SIG has claimed. The energy is there, the more power an air rifle has the more energy it has to be dealt with. If all that energy could be transferred to the pellet the world would be perfect but in reality a large portion of that energy is absorbed by the friction inside the rifle and the mass of the rifle itself. We are using a small portion of the stored energy released upon firing to move our pellet, the rest is lost to heat in friction and recoil moving the rifle during the firing cycle. 

Any rifle tuner or maker who can use just a little more of the available energy to move the pellet vs it being wasted is the hero in the air rifle game. We can try feebly to cancel out friction with lubes and smoothing/polishing the best we can and we can use mechanical means to negate or cancel out the recoil energy we feel but that energy is not lost, it is simply used some place else. The more complex the method of negating recoil for the sake of accuracy and scopes the more expensive the rifle. In the case of a magnum springer the job of getting the energy into the pellet and not into scope wrecking recoil isn't easy, there are physics that need to be dealt with. IMHO the answer isn't mushy mounts or exotic sealed gasses but something more mechanical, something that uses the released energy against itself to render movement of the barreled action to zero. Think FWB300. Or possibly a second piston that moves in the opposite direction to counter the compression piston. But here we go adding complexity and weight, two things that typically add money to an air rifle.

In lieu of building an air rifle that would cost $10k and weigh 19lbs without optics we can use optics that are built tough enough to withstand the abuse. It can be done and I believe it has, one just won't find the reliability in a $200 optic. Magnum power spring guns and cheap optics no longer go together and the day of a 25lb+ ME gun and optic for under $1k are likely gone if such a day ever existed to start with. 

Firearms guys have for decades spent as much or more on their optics than they have their rifles when reliability and longevity are paramount. These air rifles are now to the point of being the same. Want a scope that will last on your magnum rifle? Talk to the best companies in the business and break out your credit card.

The thread title needs a correction, it should read " WHY CAN'T WE MAKE A CHEAP SCOPE MAGNUM SPRINGER PROOF !"


 
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