Tuning Too much hammer, or partial valve lock?

Impact MkII, .22, 700 mm, Power Plenum, purchase new in May 2020. Having failed to make slugs work with slug liner A, I changed back to the original pellet liner supplied with the rifle. I was getting good performance with JSB 18 grain pellets, but on a whim decided to try the H&N .218 23 grain slugs which had shown some promise with the slug liner, although not good enough. To my surprise I found that with power wheel on 5, valve adjuster about the third line, regulator about 110 bar-115 bar, and the hammer tension screw about halfway in (I found I had too much variability in measuring the length of the slot, so I use another measurement), I was getting 880-890 FPS with extreme spreads of 10 or less, with five shot groups at 70 yards a half inch or less repeatedly. This was plenty of power for long-range squirrels, but I found that the first shot of the day would be lower and slower than the subsequent shots. Thinking I had some regulator creep overnight, I thought that adding a quarter turn on the hammer tension screw would give enough added hammer strike to overcome the regulator creep without significantly changing the overall string. That didn't work, and my extreme spreads went up to 20. At that point I decided to do a formal tune according to Bob Sterne's directions.

With the wheel on Max and the hammer tension screw all the way in to where I could barely move the wheel, and the regulator at 110 bar, I got 977-990 ft./s. I began gradually dialing down the regulator, looking for a maximum speed of about 915-920, from which I could back out the hammer tension screw and get to about 895, using the valve adjuster to fine-tune down to the upper 880s range. At the outset I was getting wide velocity swings, 30-40 ft./s. As I reduced the regulator it got worse, and by 85 bar I was having variations of 50 or more. The lowest velocities were indeed lower than they were at the higher regulator pressure, but the high velocities were still as high as before. With such wide swings I couldn't tell whether I was on the plateau. I remembered reading somewhere that too much hammer strike for the regulator setting would give wide swings, so I began gradually increasing the regulator again but the variability did not improve. So I tried using wheel on 5 as my "Max" and gradually backing out the screw, and then doing the same at wheel 4, 3, and 2, but I never got rid of the wide swings. By this time I had gone through several hundred expensive slugs and decided to return to the original settings described above while waiting for more slugs. Sure enough, back at the original settings I was back to my original 70 yards zero and back to tight groups with extreme spreads of 10-12.

So I began thinking that these Power Plenum guns have too much hammer to work well at low regulator pressures with these 23 grain slugs. If so, then to use the low regulator pressures I would need a weaker spring or a lighter hammer. Then I reviewed everything I'd read about tuning, and how insufficient hammer for the regulator pressure produces "partial valve lock" and wide velocity swings also. So which was it? Too much hammer or partial valve lock? By going back to my original settings I increased the regulator pressure and reduced the hammer, which makes me think it's an issue of too much hammer for the regulator. I'm now restocked on slugs, so on thinking of trying again starting with the regulator at 125 bar. I may then get a lower velocity to start with.

Yes, I know, I had a good tune to start, and I could simply have dumped the first shot if I hadn't fired in a while, but I want to understand what happened so that I can tune for various projectiles. Any thoughts?
 
At whatever pressure the regulator is set, the potential for the tightest ES will be where the hammer strike is adjusted to deliver around 95% - 97% of the peak velocity.

The symptom does indeed sound like the classic case of regulator creep. Having the hammer strike adjusted in the manner described will make the rifle less sensitive to the pressure variations of all kinds, whether it be creep or regulator linearity or temperature-induced pressure rise.

However if the amount of creep is bad enough, it may not be possible to totally squelch it that way. What sort of change in pressure are you seeing on the gauge? Say from 10 seconds after you fired the last shot versus after sitting idle for a few hours?
 
Oh and to your question of whether you were running into partial valve lock or using too much hammer strike...you were reducing the pressure so it would have been smacking the valve too hard.


Conversely, you would have needed to increase the pressure to cause partial valve lock, because the added pressure makes the valve harder to knock open (requires more hammer strike).
 
The first 2 shots from my Impact are always low fps. I thought it was reg creep, but not positive now. Tried Huma reg, no change. Rebuilt my AMP reg with new piston, washers, and o-rings...still no change. The RP gauge doesn’t move (visibly) and yet first two shots after siting a couple hours are always low. Makes me want to revert back to unregulated guns.
 
That’s a suitably small amount of variance…only about 65psi for a setpoint of about 1600psi. With it tuned to the velocity knee, that should be completely immaterial. For some perspective, bear in mind a properly tuned unregulated PCP will hold a tight ES over a range of a few hundred PSI. So too can it be for a regulated setup.

Try dialing your hammer spring tension up until the velocity tops out, then back it off until the velocity falls to about 95 – 97% of that maximum. Record a short string over the chronograph (5 shots or so) and then set it aside for a few hours. Pull it back out and put 5 more shots over the chronograph…with a particular interest in shot #1. Report back to us.

The overwhelming majority of the time, a slow (or fast) first shot is a result of reg creep, with the severity of it being related to how much hammer strike is being applied. Occasionally though there is something else causing it. For example, I had a binding valve stem one time that caused the same symptom. A trace amount of oil on the stem allowed it to work flawlessly as long as I kept going, but after it sat idle for a few hours, the lube would displace from the spot where it was binding and it caused stiction to develop. Once it was knocked free the first time, it would run fine again until I left it idle for a while.
 
So I raised the regulator to 130 bar without changing hammer preload or valve adjuster, and sure enough got a lower velocity, so that was too much regulator pressure for the hammer. Remember, this is with the power wheel on 5. Raised the wheel to Max and the valve past line 4, and tightened the hammer preload screw all the way till I could just barely move the wheel. That gave me 1040-1050 FPS. Then I began backing out the screw, getting steady decreases in velocity with two or three shots at each setting without much spread. By the time I got to 970 I had backed the screw out seven turns, and one more turn then produced a drop to the 920s but for three shots it varied up to about 945. At that point I think I was approaching valve lock. Gradually reducing the regulator I got to 120 bar, but with Max hammer I was still starting in the low 1000s, and was still having to back the screw out six or seven turns to begin seeing mid-900s, then velocity would drop hard and spread would widen. Finally, with the regulator about 110 and the wheel on 4 and gradually turning in the valve adjuster I was able to get average velocity 890 with a spread of 7, with the hammer preload screw backed out considerably less than when I tuned it with the wheel on 5. So I think it makes sense: the gun has too much hammer for what I was trying to do, and the way to make it work with 23 grain H&N slugs is to tune it on a lower power wheel setting so I'm not starting out with so much hammer. I'm sure that there is a regulator setpoint somewhere in there between 110 and 115 that would let me find the plateau with the preload screw and the wheel maxed out, but the stock gauge is not very precise and I would need a lot more ammunition to find that spot. For now I have a good accurate tune for these slugs and at least 100 shots before going off the regulator, so I have no complaint.

Tomorrow I'll check and see how much creep I got overnight.

I fill from a high-pressure scuba tank, and while it can get me about 240 bar, I generally fill to about 200-210, so I'm certainly not maxing out the pressure.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that my present tune is on some kind of knee given its consistency, but I've burned up so much ammo that I just don't feel like driving that screw back in to find out what the plateau really is, and I'll bet that if I do that I'll be back in too much hammer territory, with huge velocity spreads so that I can't make a usable graph.
 
Okay. When the regulator is set at 110 bar, it will creep up to 115 overnight. Right after a shot it reads 105, and within one or two minutes it returns to 110, so there is definitely regulator creep, but it's not huge, and creep seems to be a fact of life. Since I've gotten a good accuracy with the 23 grain H&N .218 slugs at 885-890 ft./s, I tuned the gun to give me that, waiting two minutes between shots, and of course arriving back at the hammer and valve adjustments I had before I messed everything up. It was too windy last evening to fire for group, so I got up early this morning before the wind, and began shooting at 0700 (I'm in northern New Hampshire). Groups were terrible, 1 inch or better, and about one mill high. So I broke out the chronograph: 923 ft./s! Regulator still read 110. I cleaned the bore, fired five seasoning shots, then chronographed again, getting 920s.

Backing out the hammer tension screw, and turning the valve screw in once my velocity reached about 900, I arrived back at 888-900, and proceeded to shoot nice half inch 70 yard groups just as before. It did take me until 1030, by which time it was significantly warmer, nearly 60°.

So what happened overnight? I'm inclined to think my hammer strike is unstable for some reason. The breech seal is fresh, and I'm getting no air blowback while I shoot. May have to tear the gun down.
 
@khornet. sounds like you have been pulling hairs as I did shooting my 600mm slug liner Impact MK2. A month ago before I got the new H&N 23gr .218 slugs (with large H&N logo on the tin), I was shooting consistently out to 100 yards with 1/2 - 3/4" groups of 5 shots. My tune was 125bar, Max wheel and line 4 (plenum upgrade). The velocity was 945fps with a STD of 2.2fps. It was accurate and I tagged many starlings at long ranges. But...my Impact couldn't group well at all with these new slugs. Very erratic POI and I couldn't hold zero even at 50 yards. So I tried washing and lubing them with WD40 silicone spray. The results were a bit better but still had "flyers" in my 5 shots group. I have shot a few times since trying to get the groups tighter but no luck.

Today, however, I started to increase the reg pressure from 125 bar to 140 bars and the velocity gained from 942 to 956 fps at Max setting. Groups were random as well at 90 yards test range. So I was adjusting the reg pressure up and down between 125 to 140 bars range. Mind you, the gauge does not tell exactly how many bars you are actually at.

I would take a shot at the bull eye 90 yards away see how close it was then turn the reg up by a little bit and, take another shot. By doing this, I was able to "dial" my accuracy somewhat by looking at the POI. Once I found the reg spot that I was able to hit the bull eye, I let it at that and did multiple 5 shots group. And I chrony the velocity as well.

In my case, the reg was set at around 135 bar and my average verlocity was 953 fps with the 23gr H&N .218 slug, 30 shots with a STD of 2.1fps. My groupings were significantly tighter than before. Needless to say, I was very glad and happy to see the results. They were still not perfect groups, but with one of my best group showing 1/2-3/4" with 4 of 5 shots, there is hope. I just need to put in more time to fine tune the velocity and see if I can consistently get sub MOA at 90+ yards. 

I will be posting a video soon with these H&N slugs results.

Good luck.
 
Well I looked over my notes from this morning, where I got 923 fps when it was doing 888 night before. Still don't know where that rise came from, still suspect my hammer strike is erratic BUT.......as I reduced the hammer, velocity wasn't changing much until it suddenly dropped to 900, then I began screwing in the valve adjuster to get around 890-895, which is.......about 97 PERCENT OF 923. Nervoustrig for the win. I think I was on a plateau, then tuned down onto the knee, and groups tightened right up.



Max115, maybe my 895 is *A* knee but not the only one for these slugs. Maybe a plateau around 980, 97% of which is......953, which works as well or better than 895. I've fired one group at 100 yards, and got 0.8" for five shots, but haven't tried since. Also, I'm using a PELLET liner; couldn't make my Slug A liner perform. Yet.

Not much hair left to tear out, either.
 
Khornet, I sorry to read about your trouble's getting the tune you wanted. My I suggest rather the walking the hammer and regulator down to the best tune. Starting with the hammer and regulator set lower and walking the setting's up. I found it much more predictable and less frustrating. I've also noticed there are multiple different combinations of hammer,regulator set points and valve return set points that will give the same FPS. But one of the combinations will shine better with the lowest standard deviation. Mont