Thoughts have changed on pellets versus slugs - a discussion

@bandg Very good point. Up to about 100 yards it’s MUCH easier to go with the tried and true what works pellets. I’ve shot Ground Squirrels for three years out to that distance with .22 JSB 18.1 grain pellets at about 880 FPS very successfully, and guys I hunt with will tell you that I rarely miss under 100 yards. So if that’s all your going to do, all the extra effort of getting to slug accuracy isn’t worth it, the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. I’ve said that well tuned slugs are AS ACCURATE as pellets under 100 yards, not more accurate. Because they’re not. But my objective is/was to reach out to 200+ yards for hunting small game and slugs are a definite advantage. 
Mike

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Perfectly logical. And with the effort shooters such as yourself, long shot, and others are applying the slugs may one day reach the point where they are as reliable, cost effective, and easy to use for shorter range shooters as pellets are now.

I often here people say up to 100y slugs don’t have an advantage over pellets. So would you be happy if the guy competing next to you at EBR was shooting slugs????

Id like to see a slug comp at the same 100y distance. 
same targets ect at EBR and the other big comps. It would mean more to your average shooter to see the difference in scores. You could really tell iThe difference then. 

I often here people say up to 100y slugs don’t have an advantage over pellets. So would you be happy if the guy competing next to you at EBR was shooting slugs????

Id like to see a slug comp at the same 100y distance. 
same targets ect at EBR and the other big comps. It would mean more to your average shooter to see the difference in scores. You could really tell iThe difference then.

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Again, it isn't that the slug can't have an absolute advantage. The BC is an inherent advantage that would manifest increasingly at longer ranges. If slugs can match pellet accuracy and performance at the distance a given shooter uses them, which it seems they can in many instances with an amount of work that might be quite large, and the cost to shoot them is the same as shooting pellets then absolutely why not use them? I simply don't believe that the current state of performance for slugs FOR MOST SHOOTERS is at that stage now. For longer range hunters and competition shooters, a slug may well be the standard to go to soon, if not currently. But what percentage of all air gun users do those categories represent. Such use is increasing for sure, but still no where near a majority at this time, IMO. Could be wrong. I would start shooting only slugs immediately if they shot reliably across multiple guns with the easier process of selection that pellets currently represent. I don't think slugs do so at this time. JMO of course.

Also Mike you are shooting one of the best pellets that is the product of a lot of R&D. If you where able to shoot a 25g slug with a bc + 0.1 then I doubt you’d have missed the spinner at all. 

@bandg Ahhh, the voice of reason. Not everyone has a couple of months of weekends and 20 full SCBA tanks to get their slugs shooting equivalent to a mass production pellet in accuracy. The pellet is pretty much zero effort other than generating a range card. It’s probably not worth the effort like you said for most shooters. 
But for some that do have the time, motivation, and lots of air and lots of slugs, the juice is worth the squeeze. Just yesterday I was shooting slugs and pellets from the Eddy R3 in 48 degree weather with 12 to 15 mph winds, trying to hit the 3/4 inch center swinger on one of Dave Corder’s targets at 95 yards. Let me tell you, with the RD Monsters I was getting very frustrated since the wind was changing strength every 30 seconds. I was hitting maybe one of five. After I shifted to the NSA 20.2 slugs it was as if someone had turned on the light in a dark room. I started hitting three of five, and the misses were only 1/4 inch. In calm or light breeze conditions the performance would have been about the same between both...

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The slugs certainly seem superior in that application. And if the NSA equipment modernization/change or whatever it is they are doing differently allows the full spectrum of slugs to drop even somewhere near the pellet cost then using such might make lots more sense to more people. I'd like to see you compare those two projectiles at a shorter range, say 50 yards. There would probably be a range for most gun/pellet/slug combinations where the performance of the two would begin to separate. It would be interesting to know where that range sits for a few different people. Good luck with your work on the slugs, I can see them becoming a standard for many shooters in the future.

 

This is good conversation. I don't get the buy a $2k gun, put a $400+ scope/mount on it, dedicate your valuable time and hobby driven interest to it and want CHEAP AMMO. 

Cheap ammo seems so important to some here. I would rather watch the wind and only shoot 5 accurate match grade rounds and hit what I was aiming at for the day, than sling a tin of pellets randomly shooting at what ? I also understand how some of us are to busy in life that there's no time to see or realize the advantages that a well designed slug has to offer at POI.

This is good conversation. I don't get the buy a $2k gun, put a $400+ scope/mount on it, dedicate your valuable time and hobby driven interest to it and want CHEAP AMMO. 

Cheap ammo seems so important to some here. I would rather watch the wind and only shoot 5 accurate match grade rounds and hit what I was aiming at for the day, than sling a tin of pellets randomly shooting at what ? I also understand how some of us are to busy in life that there's no time to see or realize the advantages that a well designed slug has to offer at POI.

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I hear you and understand where you're coming from... a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and buying cheap ammo for a quality rifle doesn't make sense.

I believe in the "buy once, cry once" approach so I buy the best I can afford (and justify). I have always said that the price of the rifle is insignificant relative to the cost of the ammunition that you will put through it. That being said, I have chosen an Impact in .22 caliber as my slug gun.

I love to shoot and am into airguns because pellets are (relatively) inexpensive but being retired and on a fixed income I have to make compromises. So quoting Centercut: "$19 for 100 or the same $19 for 350 slugs of the same quality? $68 per weekend" is a real consideration as it determines how much shooting I can do. From my perspective, it's not cost per shot, it's how many shots per my ammunition budget dollar.

The thing is that if you have a high-end rifle you have the option of using decent quality ammo for casual plinking and shooting at moderate ranges and break out the special stuff when you need the performance - both work fine and the rifle (beyond a barrel cleaning) doesn't care. I'm not into EBR so I don't need to worry about every fraction of a degree of accuracy but I do like to have good rifle that I can grow into. 

Cheers!

This is good conversation. I don't get the buy a $2k gun, put a $400+ scope/mount on it, dedicate your valuable time and hobby driven interest to it and want CHEAP AMMO. 

Cheap ammo seems so important to some here. I would rather watch the wind and only shoot 5 accurate match grade rounds and hit what I was aiming at for the day, than sling a tin of pellets randomly shooting at what ? I also understand how some of us are to busy in life that there's no time to see or realize the advantages that a well designed slug has to offer at POI.

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"sling a tin of pellets randomly". Really? Pellet accuracy is well established. No need to embellish to try and make your point.

And in .177 at this time, NSA slugs are 5 times the price of the very accurate pellets I shoot that serve my needs completely. But you are certainly free to shoot whatever you like. I'm well served by pellets for air guns.

How has slugs changed my air rifle shooting, in the beginning ( before .22 cal monster RD) it was a challenge to knock over .22 lr steel rams at 100 m with pellets. I now knock them over at 200 m with slugs, 300 m is still along way off but its a work in progress.

I often here people say up to 100y slugs don’t have an advantage over pellets. So would you be happy if the guy competing next to you at EBR was shooting slugs????

Id like to see a slug comp at the same 100y distance. 
same targets ect at EBR and the other big comps. It would mean more to your average shooter to see the difference in scores. You could really tell iThe difference then.

Click to expand...

Again, it isn't that the slug can't have an absolute advantage. The BC is an inherent advantage that would manifest increasingly at longer ranges. If slugs can match pellet accuracy and performance at the distance a given shooter uses them, which it seems they can in many instances with an amount of work that might be quite large, and the cost to shoot them is the same as shooting pellets then absolutely why not use them? I simply don't believe that the current state of performance for slugs FOR MOST SHOOTERS is at that stage now. For longer range hunters and competition shooters, a slug may well be the standard to go to soon, if not currently. But what percentage of all air gun users do those categories represent. Such use is increasing for sure, but still no where near a majority at this time, IMO. Could be wrong. I would start shooting only slugs immediately if they shot reliably across multiple guns with the easier process of selection that pellets currently represent. I don't think slugs do so at this time. JMO of course.

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f you have been into Airguns for some time and have a few gun that where designed to shoot pellets and do that very well then I can see changing to slugs can be like starting over and a lot of work. If your enjoying what you have then stick with it. 

If your starting out and want to start out shooting slugs or both slugs and pellets it’s much easier. You can buy guns off the shelf with the power and barrel to shoot the slugs. Guns designed to do that. Even the slugs themselves all from the same manufacturer. They have done all the hard yards for you.

You may well be correct but it seems that it is still very much a work in progress. Getting better quickly but not yet finished. But that is the entire point. Some percentage of air gun shooters will never need slugs. No doubt they have their place and if it suits an individual shooters needs then that's great. But they aren't, as the status is currently, for everyone and many seem to intimate that they are "the only way to go". My shooting needs has no place for them as I use rimfires for what pellets in my air guns can't do. Some possibly don't have that option and that's understandable. Good to have options. People can shoot what they want or need much easier these days.

With all the cool new stuff going on in the slug craze its easy to forget that we're still just scratching the surface.

Look at what a simple video that Bob_O shared on harmonic tuning did for slug shooting! (Thank you Bob_O!)

I edged out my brother's Ruger Precision at 260 yards with my Impact just last week. 

I say edged because my shotgun pattern was smaller than his pattern at 260. Lol. 

It definitely showed some promise though. Wind is still the biggest factor and to really show off anything impressive it would take some ideal conditions. Even finding locations to shoot that far is tough around here.

I shot a group at 200 the weekend before last with Long_Shot where most of my shots landed under 1-5/8". The slightest breeze blew the rest probably 6-8" out. So you could see the potential. 

So now I'm pondering more weight to buck more wind, or better myself and deal with it. 

I've missed some things here. Been too busy compiling video for the next discussion. Slugs versus Slugs. 

@long_shot I see your point Tom, but there’s another way I look at it. Also, I’m not sure of your definition of “cheap” ammo?

If I’m practicing and shooting 350 (or more) rounds every weekend, do I want to spend $19 for 100 or the same $19 for 350 slugs of the same quality? $68 per weekend is $272 per month instead of $76 per month. That of course is comparing the old prices to the new NSA prices in lighter weight .22 caliber. 

Its not the 5 match grade shots; it’s the thousands of shots honing your skills so that you can make those five shots IMHO. 

Now that you got me thinking about cheap items for or as a part of our high end air rifles. My question is along the same lines as yours. Why would someone that spends $2000+ on a quality high power air rifle spend less than $400 on a cheap scope? Things that make you go hmmm...

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Cheap Ammo = to me is anything less than match grade. Over 1/2- 1 tenth of a grain weight variance is unacceptable. 

The cost to shoot is a serious concern to be aware of. I get that. Money is very important. But, do you know how much you could save if you made you own match grade slugs to any specs. you need to fit your barrel perfectly with unmatched accuracy ???? "Things that make you go hmmm."

If all someone wants is easy "plug and play" reach in the tin and shoot a few mag's. or tins of pellets. Have fun because current PCP's are designed incredibly well for just that. If you shoot competitions your hands are tied. Same guns due to ammo velocity based accuracy restraints. 

But, if you want to spend your time improving on an industry that's way behind in slug and slug/gun advancements, the sky's the limit. 

About that harmonic tuning "probably not as important with a stiff non flexing barrel." I would recommend a re-look at that thought.