The TRUTH about glass please

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JamesD.

JamesD.

Member
Dec 9, 2015
2,434
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NE PA, United States
Every scope should be required to list what factory, grade glass is in it. 


I was told SWFA SS are so great. Yes, they ARE. As far as tracking. I love the mil quad Hollow Diamond. But I have heard scuttlebutt that they're going to upgrade reticles to include a windage christmas tree style into it. Yay. 
I might even buy a SWFA HD 10x42mm if they do because I'm reaching out.

I'm gonna tell ya now, I sat unmounted Bushnell Engage 2.5-10 against fixed SWFA SS 10x42mm and compared at 300-800-1200 yards. 
The non Japanese Bushnell Engage was clearly the winner. Now I have found out you don't get Japanese glass until you buy above The Bushnell Forge. Even it doesn't have Japanese glass. 
So, somebody somewhere in China, Korea, or The Philippines is making some darn good glass.

Problem is I am not going to buy, look, sell at 3/4 of what I paid. 
Does anyone here not agree that glass source should be included in specs?

I think it's wrong not to have it. 
Now in SWFA's defense the fixed scopes parallax is set at what looks like 100 yards. Maybe that's the main reason for tunneling/blurred edges past 300 -400 yards.

Look fellas, there's scope Gurus here that know exactly what glass is in what & it should be an ongoing updated sticky. 
https://youtu.be/JvhL1SsNpqE

https://youtu.be/GCISX9id86I



When I read what OWNERS, not Dealers say, it's incredibly sad to think you're getting something you're not.

A link I can't include comments on Minox being talked up and price rising. 
Tangent Thea, Light Optics Work of Japan, Vortek AMG USA glass.

I'm willing to bet that the Vortek AMG, USO glass comes from a little know factory in New Jersey. I wired that building during an add on. Never would have known about it otherwise.

Please help & let's get a list of glass. 
A year ago so many people were RAVING about these Discovery scopes. HD (High Definition) is a marketing term. ELD(extreme low dispersion) is something you're gonna pay for.

I guess only the Top scopes like Hendsolt, Tangent Thea, Swarovski use actual SCHOTT glass. And I know not all Swarovski or Steiner's do as I'm told it's not in any scopes under $1500 and I see $800 Steiners. So clear this up for me.

Removal of all impurity's, the level of polishing, the coatings. I believe that is Bushnell's claim to fame. 

 
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Don't forget that even Schott has numerous types and grades of glass. So the Schott glass in a Zeiss Victory V8 is not going to be the same as that in the lower cost Tract Toric, nor necessarily the same as in a similarly highly priced Swaro etc.

https://www.schott.com/advanced_optics/english/products/optical-materials/optical-glass/optical-glass/index.html

Plus then you have all the variables introduced by the differing methods, types and precision of lens grinding, polishing and coatings, along with optical design and precision of assembly.

So this kind of thing, while nice to know is going to be VERY difficult to make particularly meaningful conclusions about.

P.s. impurities are removed during the actual making of the glass at the factory, so bushnell at best just expects a higher grade from their factories - they certainly can't claim to remove any unless they actually melt down and re-refine the supposedly top quality glass they're supplied.
 
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Marcos is right I do not think it really matters where the glass is made but the quality of the final glass and then it has a lot to do with all of the many other things needed to put it all together to get the scope completed. My opinion is that people whom are really passionate about this to an extreme like many of the people on the forum like "Yo" and "Joe Rhea" aka "Cyclops" provide more valuable opinions. Just like you said JamesD, the Bushnell which I believe "Yo" has commented on favorably has glass made in China and is a Chinese made scope. Asia makes most of the scopes, etc. but it is up to either the company contracting the manufacturing and their criteria or the manufacturer whom makes and sells their own line to maintain a certain quality level. "Yo has shared some super low cost scopes made in China that kick butt over glass made all over the world so knowing where the glass is made does not determine if it is a great scope. I wish it was that easy but the more I dig in the scope realm the more I realize nothing beats real world user reviews to know what is really good..
 
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Ahhh, glass. a subject near and dear to my heart. Been following cameral lenses since the mid '70's. Yes, there are many types of glass. For example, if you buy an Nikon DSLR 50mm lens from Nikon, the prices range from $370 to $1450 for a 50mm lens depending on speed and glass, mostly glass. There are differences.

I'm also happy to say the crappiest Nikon brand lens today is light years ahead of the best lenses from 40 years ago.

Same is happening in scopes. I ran onto my first "Nice" scope a few months ago. Redfield widefield 1.5 to 4x. Neat little scope, but I think it's a 24mm tube. Nice and clear, probably cost me a few hundred in 1980. My crappy Centerpoint scopes are about as good these days. What I'm trying to say is that we are spoiled for choice and the standards are so high compared to 40 years ago, you almost can't lose.

Now, as for who makes the best glass today, well, most if not all good stuff comes from China. Even Leopold does global sourcing for glass. The Chinese are willing to turn a blind eye to pollution and other issues to make it as cheaply as possible, while turning out some extremely good quality stuff. I suspect that if you knew where the glass really came from in most lenses, it's China. Most other countries are simply priced out of the market.


 
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I don't think that the glass source actually matters that much. You literally confirmed that in your post with your scope comparison. 

I believe the coatings and how well it is assembled makes the most difference in how "good" glass is. If they listed the glass source that you didn't believe was best, but every review said it was great, would you really pass on it? 

I bought a Clearidge Ultra RM 3-9X32 several years ago because they were Japanese and supposed to be great for the money. And it's a piece of poop. The AO has zero tension under 25 yards, the reticle is too thick, it's not extremely sharp, and it costs too damn much. But it's Japanese!!!

Usually on a scope that's made in "whoknowswhere" the glass isn't what suffers. It's the way it's halfassed thrown together. But, I have a Japanese Clearidge thats the same. So it's whatever. The glass origin don't mean much these days. Take top grade Japanese or Euro glass, mail it to China, pay a 12 year old to toss it together and see what you get. 


 
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Not so simple,too much here say.Some of the best scopes in the world are still manufactured in Japan.The good scopes made in China are tested for quality ,usually by the Chinese quality control persons that were trained by the "outside" quality control people...I was told that some of the older European optics companies sent their old machinery to China ,they trained the Chinese how to use them and keep up the quality.

Good optic glass is usually made by companies that just do that.

Truth,in optics you usually get what you pay for......That is the Big reason we the buyers Need to listen and point out good scopes that really work for Most of us and at great price we can afford.

I think affordable glass that has a proven track record is good enough for shooting at closer ranges...it is crazy to spend more than $200 on a scope you are only going to shoot 25yds or less....the longer you shooting distance the better your glass needs to be.....a generalization I know.

For Sure the people that know what is up and share their views about scopes are truly helpful to use.

Optic glass is sort-a-like tires.....there is plenty of rebranded tires out there....it is all about Price Point.

The history how the USA helped Japan rebuilt after WW2 is very interesting....check out the man from Eastman Kodak got the Japanese optic industry back on it feet and how the little golden sticky saying passed came about....

I would like to see were the "glass" comes from,but what has been said is also right...good glass is just one step.
 
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Forgive me for being a little off topic but it’s something I feel is important and I can’t say I’ve seen it discussed in any thread on optics and begs the question;

”How long has it been since you had an eye exam?”

Is a question I’ve asked a few shooters whom I’ve helped over the years. And a couple have been almost indignant about it like I asked them how their prostate was doing, particularly older shooters. The trouble they may be having isn’t the scope, it’s their eyes. And it’s totally understandable unless you’ve noticed a big change in your vision, you assume everything is fine and nothing has changed.

Some who wear glasses (all ages) may not have had a proper eye exam in years or buy their glasses from a kiosk. 
“These tied old eyes” is so common an excuse among our older shooters who may have early onset of Age-Related Macular Degeneration, Glaucoma, Cataracts, Astigmatism, etc. they assume a particular scope will compensate for what their normal vision can’t produce. 
I digress so the thread can continue with its intended topic.

thanks for letting me throw that out there.





 
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I agree Dave and I do have proper glasses for reading. I've had to adjust eyepiece a little further out. 


I just believe a grading system should be used. 
I see so many scopes and so many rebranded scopes. That's where a lot of the confusion comes in. I'm not interested in paying for a name.

The SWFA wins in elevation and is a good scope. I was just surprised that the non Japanese Bushnell is clearer. I have no idea what glass SWFA uses. 


The Gentleman that mentioned cameras. If I judged a scope by names I associate with great cameras, I would think Leica, Nikon, had top tier glass always. Nikon Monarchs are good to my eyes. Great actually. 


You do get what you pay for but I think there's some great stuff under $800. 
I don't want SF, illuminated.
Simple 5-20 2ndFP fine 0.1 mil/mil or a fixed 10x, maybe 12x with a fine windage/christmas tree reticle. Same .1mil/mil or 1/8moa click adjustments.

I'm leaning towards a fixed as less lenses, less distortion allegedly. Less money. 
We'll see. If I can't do what I want with the scopes I have I'll know if it's me or the scope and pony up if necessary. Every scope I've had has been okay for its intended purpose. 
A further than ever attempt with a new slug shooter may require a better scope. I can't help but think what 8x Unertl's we're capable of. Today's tracking & mounts are better. So I'll probably be good as my attempt will be 400-800 yards at most. Again, we will see.



 
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My JAPAN MARCH-F 4-24x52 and JAPAN Vortex Golden Eagle 15-60x52 and China Bushnell Forge 3-18x50 have arrived for a face off.

Spoiler alert! I have several of the China Bushnell Engage and Korea Nitros too as well as the JAPAN TACs.

1595649912_18271412685f1baf789b0fd2.49344047.jpg

 
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Well the VORTEX Golden Eagle 15-60x52 is crystal clear up to 35x then it isn't crystal sharp anymore but it's clearer than the Sightron SIIIs 10-50x60 and 8-32x56 that are clear up to only 30x before they start to losing it and get real dark and lack of sharpness. The March-F 3-24x52 is bright and clear 100% throughout its entire magnification range and is no question the clearest out of these however I don't like the dizzying nauseating fishbowl effect at the lowest 3x magnification up to 5x and also am surprised it has only 4 levels of illumination and reticle gets too fat at 24x max like the FFP Hawke SW30. Same reason I returned a brand new S&B dizzy nausiated but very very very clear. The BUSHNELL 3-18x50 DAMN it has a 25 yard minimum parallax for a 3-18x50 what's up with that? I think it's way overpriced being Chinese. Glass is clear throughout its entire magnification range but so are the Vector Optics at 1/3-1/4 the price and this glass isn't like the Golden Eagle nor Match-F at 18x. Very good but not blown away good like the others. I would feel fine paying a maximum of $300 for it. I would choose the Alpha6 over it if they were the same price because of the Illumination and the nicer reticle and 10 yard focus not price dependant. I have several of the lower entry priced Bushnell Engage 6-24x50s and the glass is very similar and can't explain the reason for the big price difference. It it also equal to the Korean NITRO 5-20x44 their mid level performer in clarity at 18x.

The $299 sale JAPAN BUSHNELL TAC 5-15x40 1" tube front AO SFP Mildot is clearer and brighter than the Forge at 15x. It SEEMS as bright and clear throughout its entire 5-15x magnification range as the $699 Japan SWFA SS 3-15x42. The Vortex Golden Eagle at 15x has a slight edge over both SWFA SS and BUSHNELL TAC bit not a night and day difference probably wouldn't know if not side by side. The March-F is no question the brightest and clearest period and it's expected due to its ridiculous selling price.

Next scope I'm buying is the 4.5-30x $2000 and under Killer Cyclops just reviewed as the VORTEX Razor gen2 KILLER...


 
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I think if there were a high magnification scope in the reasonably moderate price range around maybe up to $1000 that was like a 20-80x then I would think it would be good from 20-45x? Isn't that how clarity seems to work with cheaper scopes with the upper end magnification throw away? Washed out?

It's good Joe reviewed that scope he just did. That Japan scope has Schott HT glass.
 
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Hmm.. a review involving a scope 2 and 3 times the price. No disrespect to Yo, but him telling you they all look clear during mid-summer’s brilliance is hardly comprehensive.
Click to expand...

True - for these comparisons to mean anything you need details like contrast, resolution, distortion, CA levels, performance in different light and at different mags. Might be a pain to write but it's needed. 'Clear' doesn't help. Loss of clarity can come down to a whole lot of different optical problems. 

Plus then there are the multiple assumptions propagated, like if it looks the same on the outside it's the same scope on the inside, including the implied assumption that a similarly 'clear' $200 scope will have the same quality of materials, calibration and precision in the turrets/other adjustments and the same qc as it's $1200 stablemate (or maybe this is all just regarded as unimportant). A scope is an aiming device - despite the fact that we all love great optics, if anything the quality of the glass plays second fiddle to the quality, precision and durability of the controls.

The really good scope reviews from DLO, Richard Utting and even to come extent the 'pre-corona' Tiborasaurus Rex (before he started making almost exclusively apocalypse lifestyle videos) are generally long, technical (read 'boring' for many) and nitpicky. Not just a 30 second 'clear as this $xyz China and this $yzx Japan' followed by a recommendation to but something off aliexpress 🤷‍♂️ or buy everything and send back all but one.

Nothing against Yo and I understand he's really trying to help, but these sorts of recommendations and 'comparisons' basically just derail most threads from the question asked into a discussion of whichever cheapie has recently been delivered in bulk to his house, or to a bunch of memes.

Much like this thread and the Element Titan one before it.


 
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I think everyone needs to buy at least one of everything that way everyone has the chance to see through the scopes with their own eyes and do their own side by side comparisons. Then of course return what's not acceptable and just keep the clearest ones. That makes pretty good sense don't you think? Then whatever your eyes prefer order 10 or 20 of them for how many guns you need them for i have more than 100 guns that are still without scopes and I'm tired of swapping and rezeroing every time I test a new gun. Just need to order one of each just to try first that's all and nothing wrong with returning unsatisfactory scopes. I probably returned 50 to 60 over the years that just didn't agree with my own eyes.
 
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Also my decision to purchase and try out scopes aren't necessarily price dependent either. I recently bought 20 of the Sightron SIIIs 10-50x60s 13 yard focus because of the illumination and 30 of the BUSHNELL TAC 5-15x40 AO because of the clarity and I can looking through it all day. I haven't ordered any more of the Alpha6 $215-$229 cheapest now and may buy a lot of the one Joe reviewed if that one agrees with my eyes more than the Alpha6. It's not only about clarity for me, it's about eye fatigue. There were several high end European scopes I couldn't handle looking through due to their fishbowl effect at lower magnification settings. There was even a top of the hill LEUPOLD I returned because of this. It doesn't only make me dizzy it makes me nauseated and that takes all the fun away from shooting.

I made a mistake buying 20 of the Sightron SIIIs when I should have tried one first to realize it's no good past 30x. Luckily the 20 additional non illuminated Mildot versions that I had committed to buy and placed a hold on were sold to someone else the same day I paid off my credit card. Especially with this new king of the hill just reviewed. WHEW!!!
 
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OR!!! How's about I LIE and say the Vortex Golden Eagle IS CRYSTAL CLEAR ALL THE WAY TO 60X(even though theres darkness and fuzziness starting from 35x) AND THE SIGHTRON SIIIs ARE PERFECT ALL THE WAY TO 50Xs (even if past 30x ain't perfect no more?) WOULD THAT BE MORE ACCEPTABLE? IF I PRETEND TO BE BLIND AND RECOMMEND A SCOPE THAT EVEN I WAS DISSATISFIED ABOUT?

HOW ABOUT EVERYONE GO BUY THE $650 MTC VIPER PRO I WILL LIE AND SAY ITS THE CLEAREST SCOPE MONEY CAN BUY ALL THE WAY TO 30X EVEN THOUGH ITS A PIECE OF poop PAST 20X??? 
 
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