The problem with custom PCP gun stores

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Z

zebra

Member
Sep 29, 2015
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New York
Approximately once per year I get struck with an inexplicable urge to build my own air rifle. Nothing too ambitious. Just assembling one from store bought custom parts. It comes on like the flu and usually results in a similar amount of headache and wasted time. 

There are stores that sell the parts for such an endeavor but the problem is that none of them are very good. It's not the quality of the craftsmanship that's at fault. It's the lack of vision and common sense. 

You see, if I am going to go to the trouble of making a diy anything, it will be to either get something for less money or to get something better for the same money. It should be a super fun experience too, like it is for firearms. As it's "custom", I want to be able to make decisions like:

ST, LW or CZ barrel, Bottle or tube, CF or metal bottle, Huma or JD regulator, side lever or bolt-action, premium Walnut or entry level stock, one or two stage trigger, upgrade now or later etc etc.

so..... can I choose any of these things? Not even one. For some reason, my only option is to spend $400-$500 to upgrade a Crossman 2240 or Discovery to be almost as good (but not quite) as an off-the-shelf Marauder. I.e. a giant waste of time. They do offer a choice of different breach colors which would be awesome.... if I was a 12-year-old girl.

I don't have an issue using a Discovery or 2240 as a starting point. I don't mind the custom multi-shot breaches that use Marauder mags. I do mind big time that these stores are only offering them with Crossman barrels in 22 cal and the lack of choice or upgrade options for everything else.

These stores are already machining their own barrels and bottle adapters etc. Giving customers the option to upgrade with drop-in ST or LW barrels or to use a premium regulator with CF bottle would require no new investment on their part. It would make the buying experience infinitely better though. 

Afterall, everybody prefers things to be the way they like them. Person A likes ST, B likes LW barrels and C is on a budget and wants to stick with the Crossman barrel. That should be no problem - that's what a custom air gun store is all about. Take away those choices and you have an inferior off-the -shelf gun that you have to build yourself (with no saving). 

So... every year.... I end up with the same conclusion: custom air guns are still a waste of time because that need for low cost entry-level PCP rifles is already filled very well by Crossman, Gamo and Hatsan etc. CZ USA sells the CZ200 for $350 from their web store.... These custom parts stores will never be able to compete on price if they only focus on parts to turn Discovery's and 2240's into inferior Marauders. 

On the other hand, the market for custom multi-shot Discoverys with upgrade options like LW barrels, regulated CF bottles and figured Walnut stocks is not currently served at all. I know because I just tried to buy the parts to make one and as usual, nobody sells them. In fact, nobody is selling premium drop-in barrel upgrades for any air gun apart from the 22 TJ Marauder barrel offered by MM and their waiting time says it all. You're lucky to receive the one you ordered while you're still alive because that market is so under-served....

Anyway... this is why the custom firearm market is huge while the custom air gun market is just a huge disappointment! 

One day there will be a custom air gun store that is actually cool and worth visiting. A wide choice of ready machined parts will be in stock. You'll be able to order online and select options for everything using drop-down menus. You'll be able to click on options like: 22 cal, CZ barrel, 17", 1.5" shroud, 7", side-lever, left side, 480cc bottle, cf, 30fpe, power adjuster, Composite tactical stock, huma reg, auto index mag and there will be no warnings about how it will be delivered whenever they feel like it "because it's custom". "Custom" will not be an excuse for poor customer service.

Popular components like bottle adapters will not be out of stock for months on end because the owner will use their brain to see that they should order more of the popular items. People ordering ready built custom guns will not have to wait forever because it will only require assembly of ready made parts from the warehouse and... they will hire enough staff to fill their orders in a timely fashion.

I can't wait for there to be a decent custom shop!




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I played that game too. Started with a 2240 which was a decent CO2 pistol off the shelf. 3 times the cost of the gun later (and still not completed) it is still a pretty good CO2 20" barrel carbine that could be whipped by any off the shelf Discovery for the same money currently invested! As a matter of fact the only parts from the original gun remaining are the trigger / handle group, valve. hammer and end cap. Too many low cost PCP options are a month or 2 away now as well.

Thurmond
 
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There was a time when I could build a computer considerably cheaper than buying a commercially built model. Those days are long gone. Commercial units are engineered so inexpensively, building with off-the-shelf parts just isn't cost effective for a low end machine.

On the other hand, if I'm looking for a high performance machine, custom builds can be very cost effective. building with the parts I want gives me a machine that performs well, most of the time, less expensively than the commercial version.

I think the same may hold true for airguns. Low end is owned by Crosman and a couple other vendors. Higher end, might be completely different. Haven't priced it yet, but perhaps high end might make a difference.
 
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"Saltlake58"There was a time when I could build a computer considerably cheaper than buying a commercially built model. Those days are long gone. Commercial units are engineered so inexpensively, building with off-the-shelf parts just isn't cost effective for a low end machine.

On the other hand, if I'm looking for a high performance machine, custom builds can be very cost effective. building with the parts I want gives me a machine that performs well, most of the time, less expensively than the commercial version.

I think the same may hold true for airguns. Low end is owned by Crosman and a couple other vendors. Higher end, might be completely different. Haven't priced it yet, but perhaps high end might make a difference.
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Exactly 100% correct. 

Custom makes no sense unless you are aiming to achieve premium performance for less money and / or a product customized to your taste.

Comverting a 2240 to be like a Discovery has zero value. Unless there is an upgrade path which includes premium barrels, regs and bottles, they can keep their silly custom brass bolt handles and blue breach paint.

It's just so obvious. Why can't they see this??? The barrel and air delivery system are the two most important things on a PCP rifle. They should obviously start there for a custom parts offering. 

Custom bolt handles are the very very last thing they should focus on. Nobody worries how the mail box looks before the house is built....
 
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"Auronotcs"The issue with what you're saying isn't that it isn't possible, is it profitable? The upfront money would be a major pain. But I am surprised Crosman hasn't expanded on their little custom shop away from the little toyguns they like to sell.
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To be profitable, things have to sell well. Just like with anything else, a margin would be added to the price they paid to buy the materials and voila - a profit - but only if it sells.

I think there is a far bigger issue with what they do now where their products suck so much that demand isn't there for them to properly scale their businesses. It's not like what they do now is working and I am suggesting something that could risk that. The path they are currently on is the most likely to lead to going out of business.

Most of those custom shops don't last very long. Half the links to custom stores on sites like airguns.net always lead to ex-businesses because their offering is so universally unappealing. 

There wouldn't be so many custom firearms parts manufacturers if the model didn't work. And (as if we needed even more proof), the MM can't work fast enough to get their custom barrels out the door.

why do you think there would be an issue making it profitable if they made it good?
 
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I get it if you can only afford X and then upgrade/customize it incrementally over time as your budget allows, and you like to tinker.

I don’t get it when people buy an entry/intermediate level gun, then spend lots of time, money, and aggravation a short time later "customizing" by adding things like aftermarket barrels, regulators, valves, etc and then have the equivalent in $$ spent as they would have if they had just purchased a much higher tiered gun from the start that doesn’t need any tinkering and that easily outperforms the "custom"..
 
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I guess it depends on how many options you want..... and... Yes.. RAW still offers bolt actions....most of the spare parts are listed on the web store, if you don't see it make a call... just about any barrel is available... or send us one, and it can be machined to fit...(personally I have put LW's standard / Poly, BSA, CZ, Benchmark 2 groove, 3 groove, Lija, ST's, MM's, Wiscombe, Dan Brown, Krieger, Cut Rifle bbls, etc... etc... 177, 20, 22, 25, 30, 35......) velocities Sub 12 fpe to 1000 plus FPS.....
Customers have order just barreled actions.... I have seen many customer custom made stocks....

But.... I digress.... What was the question...





Mark RAW - Phx Office
 
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I guess it's kind of like the Ruger 10/22. You can buy the basic carbine and shoot until your are tired of shooting. 

​If you want you can take the same gun, install a new trigger group, barrel, stock, sights and scopes, and the rest. Eventually you'll have a nice little target gun. Or you can just buy the Tactical Solutions rifle up front with all matched parts that already shoots the head off a pin at 50 yards. Your choice. 

​If you like to tinker, buy small and work your way up. If you just want to shoot, buy big and go shoot. It all depends on the person behind the sights.
 
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To have the options and the machining capabilities you are asking for costs a lot of money up front, and the market probably will never pay off the investment.

Most of those custom shops you refer to are just one or two guys with "hobby" machines tools, or a shop that does other stuff to really make money. If you had a company and you wanted to hire some machinists to do the work, they will want to use good machines. Machinist will laugh (to themselves) and walk away if the shop is equipped with cheap machine tools.

A moderately good used old iron manual lathe, for instance will set the company back at least $3-5,000. A comparable mill will be a bit more. Add the tooling and you have now doubled, at least, this used cost. New manual machines run about ten times that. Add the tooling and you will double the used cost. If one goes the CNC route, the cost has just doubled the new price in both machines and tooling required. There are other machines that are needed like grinders, saws, inspection tools that also are not inexpensive in order to fully equip a shop. 

Now add inventory costs. You want the stuff you ordered shipped within the week, if not the same day. That means all the parts need to be on the shelf, and there must be room to store all those parts. Shop and storage space cost money every month.

To make parts affordable, one needs to do as many as is reasonable with one set-up. Turning the outside of barrels to fit Marauder actions, for instance on a manual lathe, is one set-up. (Note: to do this right, the inside of the barrel needs to be aligned with the axis of the lathe, not the outside. This is not a trivial set-up. One does not just install the barrel in a collet and start turning.) Cutting the o-ring grooves is a different set-up for each caliber. Drilling and (ideally reaming) the transfer port is another set-up and machine. Milling the flats for the set-screws is yet another. Each other part that you want made can have several set-ups and time to run. CNC machines have the advantage in that tooling can be changed back and forth quickly so the part only has to be installed in fixtures once or twice With manual machines tooling changes are slower and the parts have to be removed and installed in fixtures more often with manual machines. Oh, I almost forgot about all the fixtures one has to either make or buy.

ETA: Here is a lathe (new) that I would consider to about the minimum quality and size to do good quality work on airgun barrels. http://www.baileigh.com/metal-lathe-pl-1340?gclid=CjwKEAiA2abEBRCdx7PqqunM1CYSJABf3qvaq88SicNtrWFTdr-_qjMZBxkdEwAIPOpS7eUhGn9ceRoCsQHw_wcB
 
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On the affordable airgun spectrum (sub $1K), there's already a lot of choices available. If you want something custom, it may cost you double the cost to go the custom route compared to an off the shelf airgun. Machinist and gunsmiths hobbies are expensive. If you're lucky to know a few, they can probably make you a custom part that you want but it won't be as affordable as a mass produced product that Crossman or Gamo offers. 

On the other end of the spectrum, the term "affordable" and "custom high-end" doesn't go together. For most manufacturers seeking $1,500+ for their products. They want to offer something that's unique to the market to attract buyers. None of their products will be interchangeable with other manufacturers. For example, if you like the Mutant breech but think an FX smooth twist barrel is the best pairing, you'll have to find a machinist/gunsmith to customize it for you. I'd love to have a Mutant Carbine but unless I get someone to machine custom parts for me, it's still a dream. 

 
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"Saltlake58"I guess it's kind of like the Ruger 10/22. You can buy the basic carbine and shoot until your are tired of shooting. 

​If you want you can take the same gun, install a new trigger group, barrel, stock, sights and scopes, and the rest. Eventually you'll have a nice little target gun. Or you can just buy the Tactical Solutions rifle up front with all matched parts that already shoots the head off a pin at 50 yards. Your choice. 

​If you like to tinker, buy small and work your way up. If you just want to shoot, buy big and go shoot. It all depends on the person behind the sights.
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Exactly. Nobody is building a custom bottom of the pile 10/22 because they are cheap off the shelf. They buy the basic gun ready made and then have great fun upgrading their starter 10/22s or ARs over time with the many drop in aftermarket parts available. 

A 10/22 and an AR is a platform that can be upgraded by anybody to any level they want. This is why those two platforms are so massively popular and have such broad appeal at all levels of skill and financial means. It's what makes them classics.

And, because there are so many mass produced upgrade parts that can be bought off the shelf and used to customize your gun, people aren't forced to wait 3 or 6 months or pay a fortune for inefficient one-off production. 
 
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"I_Like_Irons"To have the options and the machining capabilities you are asking for costs a lot of money up front, and the market probably will never pay off the investment.

Most of those custom shops you refer to are just one or two guys with "hobby" machines tools, or a shop that does other stuff to really make money. If you had a company and you wanted to hire some machinists to do the work, they will want to use good machines. Machinist will laugh (to themselves) and walk away if the shop is equipped with cheap machine tools.

A moderately good used old iron manual lathe, for instance will set the company back at least $3-5,000. A comparable mill will be a bit more. Add the tooling and you have now doubled, at least, this used cost. New manual machines run about ten times that. Add the tooling and you will double the used cost. If one goes the CNC route, the cost has just doubled the new price in both machines and tooling required. There are other machines that are needed like grinders, saws, inspection tools that also are not inexpensive in order to fully equip a shop. 

Now add inventory costs. You want the stuff you ordered shipped within the week, if not the same day. That means all the parts need to be on the shelf, and there must be room to store all those parts. Shop and storage space cost money every month.

To make parts affordable, one needs to do as many as is reasonable with one set-up. Turning the outside of barrels to fit Marauder actions, for instance on a manual lathe, is one set-up. (Note: to do this right, the inside of the barrel needs to be aligned with the axis of the lathe, not the outside. This is not a trivial set-up. One does not just install the barrel in a collet and start turning.) Cutting the o-ring grooves is a different set-up for each caliber. Drilling and (ideally reaming) the transfer port is another set-up and machine. Milling the flats for the set-screws is yet another. Each other part that you want made can have several set-ups and time to run. CNC machines have the advantage in that tooling can be changed back and forth quickly so the part only has to be installed in fixtures once or twice With manual machines tooling changes are slower and the parts have to be removed and installed in fixtures more often with manual machines. Oh, I almost forgot about all the fixtures one has to either make or buy.

ETA: Here is a lathe (new) that I would consider to about the minimum quality and size to do good quality work on airgun barrels. http://www.baileigh.com/metal-lathe-pl-1340?gclid=CjwKEAiA2abEBRCdx7PqqunM1CYSJABf3qvaq88SicNtrWFTdr-_qjMZBxkdEwAIPOpS7eUhGn9ceRoCsQHw_wcB
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They already have the capability to machine barrels and make custom parts because they are already doing it. They just need to widen the choice.

Plus, anybody can send work out to a contract manufacturer or online machine shop these days if the work volume is beyond them. In fact, most of them should probably do this anyway as they suck so much at efficient and timely production. 

Every time anyone is tempted to make the point that it would require billions of dollars of investment to machine ST barrels instead of Crossman, or to machine threads for a Huma reg instead of a paintball tank, just say "but they are already doing it". If they can machine a Crossman or a Green Mountain barrel, they can machine a Lw or ST.

Also, even if they didn't have the capability already (which they do) they should be investing in it or closing down because that is their core business. 
 
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Since I saw Sniperlabyo' version of the FX Ranchero pistol with the longer barrel and extended regulated tube on this forum, I have wanted something similar. I have two Ranchero's, and are very satisfied, but they are both unregulated.
To help me with this, I have contacted my local gunsmith, Børselars here in Norway, to help me out.
This is the solution:
-FX in Sweeden is willing to deliver a Ranchero with an extended regulated airsylinder, and a ST barrel (from a FX Revolution rifle) so that "my gunsmith" here in Norway can cut it to my desired length. 
Steve Corcoran (in Texas) has already made me a custom stock, with an extended stock to suit the longer air tube. 
From Netherland I have ordered the Belita hugget to go with it.
And here I am, waiting for a custom air pistol put together from parts all over the world.
I believe this is what you can call an international project, and yes, it has already been time consuming for the involved craftsmen, and YES, it will cost me. 💰😸
 
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FYI, these are the types of stores we are talking about here:

https://www.bnmcustom.com/products_categories/complete-kits/

http://mountainaircustomairguns.co


These are stores that sell components for people like us to build our own PCP guns or upgrade existing Discoverys or 2240s. We're not talking about the other end of the market where rifles are built to order for $2500. We all know we can buy a ready made regulated cf bottle gun with a LW barrel if we spend $1500-$2500. 

A lot of people (myself included) like the idea of building a gun themselves using off the shelf parts. The whole AR market is based on this concept. The problem is that the ceiling is too low for air guns with what they sell. I wouldn't be looking to just make a Marauder level gun. I want to be able to order the parts to make it as good as I want. 

If I buy into the AR platform, there are dozens and dozens of high quality drop in barrels to choose from at various price points. Dozens of receivers ranging from $40 80% plastic ones to multi-thousand dollar ready made titanium ones. The same is true for every other component that matters which is why it's such an awesome and fun platform. That is what custom is all about. 

Nobody would bother with building a custom AR If parts were only available to make an entry level one. Just like I lose interest in the custom 2240 or Discovery when the option is to build a Marauder level gun for the price of a Marauder with no further upgrade potential. 
 
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"elmerfudd"On the affordable airgun spectrum (sub $1K), there's already a lot of choices available. If you want something custom, it may cost you double the cost to go the custom route compared to an off the shelf airgun. Machinist and gunsmiths hobbies are expensive. If you're lucky to know a few, they can probably make you a custom part that you want but it won't be as affordable as a mass produced product that Crossman or Gamo offers. 

On the other end of the spectrum, the term "affordable" and "custom high-end" doesn't go together. For most manufacturers seeking $1,500+ for their products. They want to offer something that's unique to the market to attract buyers. None of their products will be interchangeable with other manufacturers. For example, if you like the Mutant breech but think an FX smooth twist barrel is the best pairing, you'll have to find a machinist/gunsmith to customize it for you. I'd love to have a Mutant Carbine but unless I get someone to machine custom parts for me, it's still a dream. 

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I'm with you and so is everyone else, even if they don't know it yet. We all have our our taste.

You see, manufacturers make things how they like them. We want things how we like them. Many believe they offer choice but they don't. Not really. You want your gun to look like that and if it was for a firearm, it would be easy because custom parts are freely available and ready to drop right in. 

For an airgun, you would be talking about a lengthy expensive one-off project, if you could find anyone to do it for you. The few air gunsmiths in the country are terminally unavailable and the custom parts market is the most pathetic area of any product ever made. People had more choice in 1984 Moscow.
 
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