The Problem With Buying A Good Scope

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"sharroff"Zebra,
I'll bet you AJ's Mrods and BWalrons BT65's will kill a chipmunk / bird / squirrel just as dead at 50 yards as an Impact that is twice the price. And we know AJ and Bwalton have proven performance. By the same logic why would anyone want an Impact at 2x cost?

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I don't think it is the same logic although a similar principle can be applied (I.e. Air rifle don't get better just because you increase the cost). 

For example, the Evanix Max ML is priced at a similar level to the Cricket but they aren't in the same league. Just like with scopes, you can pay more without getting more. That doesn't mean that you never get more when you pay more. It's just that money doesn't always tell the full story.

If you put enough time and money into any air rifle, you can make it accurate. On your question about why somebody would pay double for an FX Impact over a Hatsan BT65 when Bwalton can make the Hatsan accurate, there is more to than just accuracy.

I haven't tried a Bwalton tuned Hatsan and I don't know anyone who has one, so I have no comment one way or the other about how accurate he can make them. I can just see he is selling tuned BT65s for $900 on his site. Let's assume he made them just as accurate as the Impact can be. To me, it's still a Hatsan. They are heavy. The stocks are low quality (lots of flex), the action is rough, they are too long to be manageable for my needs. They don't get even close to the same number of shots per fill as an Impact etc. 

I'm not saying that a Bwalton Bt65 is a bad choice (or anything like that), just that it's still not an FX Impact (at least to me). It's like when those boy racers mod their Hondas - they may go as fast as a BMW M3 but they still aren't an M3. 

With the FX Impact, I can clearly explain what extra features it has and how they would benefit me. If you change that to a $3,500 FT rifle then I can't think of a good reason why someone like me should invest in one. When I see some people buying $1,000 long range scopes to put on their 22 FX Royale for backyard plinking, the analogy is similar to me buying the $3500 FT rifle. It paying extra for features I can't use.
 
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Zebra, I'm not saying all expensive scopes are worth the extra dollars or that paying more necessarily equate to getting more. And I'm not saying everyone needs an expensive scope for their air rifle. I'm saying that a scope like the Diamond Sportsman / Sightron / March / Kahles are brighter and clearer at 50x than the Hawkes are at 30x for example. And it's easy to see that. Now, does one have to have that level of brightness and clarity? Nope, one can still hit something in a cloudier / darker scope. I shoot .177 at 55 yards for FT so brightness, clarity, and high magnification all at the same time matter to me. And I've yet to see a ~$500 scope range accurately from 40-55 yards. I'd really like someone to prove me wrong on that last point. Does one need a 1/8 MOA turret vs a 1/4 MOA turret? Yes, if they are shooting FT or BR or long distance accuracy and want to dial in exactly for their shot. No, if they are going to set their scope at a fixed distance and do hold over/under for their shooting at squirrels. And if all someone is going to do is shoot squirrels in their back yard at 20 yard, or plink in their back yard once a month I'm sure a $100 scope would do the job just fine. 

"The problem with buying a good scope" is that now you'd see (pun intended) the short comings of the other scopes that were previous unapparent became there wasn't a benchmark to compare against. It would be like having one of those boy racer honda's after getting to spend a day in a professional drift car. You'd probably never smile the same again and would always know that the boy racer honda 'just didn't corner right'.

Since this is a scope thread, let's restart the Impact vs BWalton BT65 and AJShoots Maurder in the PCP forum once I get one in my hands. 
 
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I don't think I did a very good job of saying what I meant. What I should have said was that, while you usually pay more for better scopes, there are some scopes which are more expensive without being better. 

This is the issue with comparing scopes by price range. For example, my experience was that $200-$300 Hawke scopes were overpriced compared to a $300 Athlon Talos or a $230 PA 4-14x44 FFP. IMO, there is no such thing as a "$300 scope" or an "$800 scope". At each price point there is a range of quality. Sowetimes scopes are surprisingly bad and sometimes surprisingly good. The waters are getting muddier because lower cost products are improving faster than the premium priced stuff.

I think that we will get to a point (some time in the future) where, for air gun use, it will be hard to find a difference between mid and high end scopes. 



 
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Zebra I like your posts and agree 100℅ . There are bargains and ba deals at ANY price range . My personal opinion ....And it's mine alone , is almost ALL scopes that are marketed to the AirGun community are way overpriced . To me it's a fact . We are a very small niche market and the features We like aren't always compatible with centerfire guns .
And there are just too many scopes coming outta probably the same factory with a variety of branding on them that are just sub par .
I'm convinced when they have a scope designed to " Airgun" specs it's mostly about tricky features and less about good glass and guts for a price point .
They are selling the sizzle , not the steak .
 
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"JoeWayneRhea"Zebra I agree totally . What amazes me is when I'm shooting with my main shooting Buddy and we usually end up shooting mainly from 40-60 yards and his 6-24 or 8-32 power scope Isnt capable of seeing about half the holes . And almost never if its a piece of cardboard or any thing but solid white background.
My scope is a fixed 12X and I can see just fine ...The extra magnification is useless without good glass .


Is that fixed 12x a SWFA HD?
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I think the average air gun shooter can live with a $500 to $600 scope if they want to go for a better scope. The Hawke sidewinder at around $500 and the Leopold VX-2 at around $600 will do more than most shooters can. I hope we don't scare some new shooters away thinking they need to dump a pile of money in a rifle and scope. Just get a Maxius and pump and less expensive scope and have fun. (just a trick guys to get them to go over to the dark side and spend their life saving on things like sharroff has!)

my scopes on air guns:
Weaver
SWFA
Leopolds
Hawke Sidewinders
 
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Chuckle, I think Goodtogo wrote his post after peeking at my recent orders. I am tepidly entering the PCP market (with a maximus and pump combo) just to see what all the fuss is about. Thirty years ago I had a pricy Leopold on my RWS model 52 (the scope cost more than the air rifle). I pragmatically realize that most of my shots will be at 35 yards or less, so being able to see an object (or critter) razor sharp at 100 yards (beyond a range which I will likely shoot), has limited appeal to me. I think some time spent at the local gun shops and looking through the available scopes might be very educational for me, but I fear the outcome. It may result in me burning a hole in my wallet; a frightening outcome. Overall, really great information appearing in this thread; thanks to all the contributors.
 
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Fact is there are no perfect choises of scopes for air rifles.


1. You can go with premium brand pb scope with side parallax adjustement, leipold, leica, zeiiss have them you'll get excellent optics great resolution and contrast in shadows. Problem with those - parallax is adustable 50yards and further. Most air gunners use parallax as rangefinder. At 50 yards minimum you are loosing a lot of practical range.



2. high end air scopes, hawke etc - very good feature sets and mechanicals on par with #1. But you get really really really bad optics - are inner elements made from plastic on those?! I can visualy study all sorts of possible optical abbirations. And why on the Moon hawke etc have metric mil dots, but turrent clicks in moa?!


 
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+1 with Peole . I've owned quite a few " AirGun" scopes and while the better ones have good features . The glass is FOR SURE not up to par for the price you pay .
If it's a 100$ scope OK you know in advance don't expect much , but when you get up around 300$ or more I think it's reasonable to expect at least good glass but it's often not the case . It is a pain finding a PB scope that'll focus to AirGun distances but its the only way I'll spend my money from here on out .
 
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Wouldn't it be great if, instead of trying to struggle through the treacle of brands and models, you could just buy the grade of glass you wanted, specify the tube material, gas fill and features etc. There just never seems to be a scope that is just right.


I hate shopping for scopes more than anything else on earth. I would literally rather go shoe shopping with my wife and I would rather saw off my feet than do that. The complete lack of useful info in the specs and total reliance on the opinions of others never fails to fill my heart with rage. 

Why isn't there a scale for rating glass quality, or, if there is, why doesn't anyone use it??? A simple ABC scale, like the have for diamonds, would be perfect. That way we could decide if we prefer to pay for C glass with more features or drop some features to get B glass etc. 

The way it is now, you never know what you are getting until it arrives and sometimes you don't know until you see somebody else's. 

The glass is the most important part of a scope. It's like the engine of a car. It would be like buying a Ferrari and not finding out if they gave you a 2L engine from a Chrysler instead of the V8 you were expecting. 

 
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"JoeWayneRhea"Zebra I have ZERO doubt there I a scale ... How else would the branded scope buyers be able to specify what glass for what products. Used to Fully Multi coated mentioned something . Now it's just tech talk that can mean anything ...Like Turbo French fries .
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How can you say turbo French fries doesn't mean anything? I won't touch a single French fry unless I know it's a turbo. That's how you know it's the good stuff. Of course, that's nothing compared to "aircraft grade turbo French fries". That's when the big bucks start rolling in!


For a scale to have meaning, it has to be created by a single independent organization. All scopes need to use the same scale and need to be graded by that same independent organization.

i'm sure whatever scale is used to specify glass by the factory could be made into a simplified scale for us "normal people". 
 
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A limited number of vendors give a percentage of light transmission (such as 98%), but having worked in optics for years (mostly lasers), I realize even that number can be futzed to an appealing value. I chuckle (and agree with JoeWayneRhea) that many purchasers listen for the sizzle, rather than looking at the steak. I have been tormented by an *un-named* brand of scopes recently. Their advertising pushes all the right buttons, without making any real verifiable claim for light transmission or clarity or lack of spherical aberrations in the image. (or even the dreaded Newton's rings). But, those scopes brag about first focal plane optics, etched reticle, side parallax which goes down to 10 yards, nitrogen filled, 30mm tube, illumination, etc.. at a less than $200 price tag. You know they couldn't spend much on the glass (or coatings) at that price. Their one year warranty is not helpful; usually companies which make a quality product tend to offer better warranties. 
 
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"zebra"
Why isn't there a scale for rating glass quality, or, if there is, why doesn't anyone use it??? A simple ABC scale, like the have for diamonds, would be perfect. That way we could decide if we prefer to pay for C glass with more features or drop some features to get B glass etc. 






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Oh theres cetrainly rating for glass quality - name and price. 

Quality glass is very expensive, people who are in photography know that more than well. There are lenses with same feature sets and similar numerical specs that differ in cost 10x. Exactly same price/quality difference for binoculars.

Good apo/ed glass is something that was not affected by cnc revolution. Nowdays mono tube scope is not big deal. Illuminated reticles is no big deal either. Problem is air gun scope manufacturers put hardened horse piss crap there instead of glass.

After all I think that $500+ hawke airmax is overpriced rip off. And statement:


"If it’s a 100$ scope OK you know in advance don’t expect much"


pretty much describes modern state of air gun scopes.

Air guns advanced significantly during last 5 years. But we all know that sometimes pellet starts spiral after passing 60-70 yard mark making repeatable accuracy past 60-70 yards big deal of luck/skills.
 
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