DAYSTATE REPORT

RE: Juggling the RW when using the PowerSet MK2 Programmer

The fact of the matter is that I'm kind of klutzy when it comes to tuning my RW. I've been balancing the action on bags after removing it from the stock. Being a "glass half empty" person I've been waiting for an accident to happen.

No more. Frustration lead to a solution that works for me. Specifically, I fabricated an adjustable stand that holds the RW via the stock bolt. 

As you can see in the supplied image the stand holds the rifle upright. It makes it possible to raise or lower the muzzle so I can hit a pellet trap mounted on the same workbench and thereby easily cock, load and fire the rifle during preliminary chronograph testing. The stand allows me to add more air to the rifle during tuning. It fits in my gun case so I can take it and the rifle to the range for final testing before sliding the action back into the stock. Best of all, I can even balance the stand and rifle on bags if needed for range testing.

My solution may not be the best for everyone and whatever they have come up with, but it works for me (even if considered "a solution looking for a problem").

Now if I spend more time shooting the RW, and less time fiddling around with it, I might be able to do the rifle justice when shooting at a target. 

Best wishes.

The other Mark B.

Note I replaced the viton breech seal with buna a few days back because I was told that groups opened up with viton. I have not yet checked this out with my gun yet, but will.

Other Mark B. I been on the same Viton seal for almost 2 months, no grouping issues, same seal I shot ebr with...

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The same for me. I blew out several of the stock o'rings before I got to the Viton. I've had the viton o'ring in for at least a couple of months and it works perfectly.

Other_Mark, you keep saying "buna" and it confuses me just a bit. Buna is a description of the hardness of the rubber and all o'rings have a buna or durometer rating. The stock o'ring is 70 buna and the viton is buna 75. So they are virtually the same. But the vition is tougher and as has been my personal experience, I get far more shots from the viton with no change in accuracy. 

Now one thing I DID notice is in going to a buna 90 . The 90 is too hard and it is more difficult to feed the pellets like you describe. It also let a little air leak past the probe and I lost some fps. But since I went to the Viton 75, it has worked perfectly.

So are you talking about going to a 90 when you are having issues?



Crusher

I had mine set up to the 970's for a while and I think you are right. I bet it is wasting a ton of air. I also found that I had nothing like a regulated bell curve but rather a descending line. The first shots where hot and then slower and slower for 38 shots. Once I tuned it to where it is now, I have a very nice flat line.

If you are tuning and not shooting a string over the chrono, you can get this same descending line. And it was a not a good tune for my gun. It is far more accurate now that I have it tuned down just a bit. Mine shoots around 950 with a very small ES of like 12 or so. 



Crusher

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Bill... mine still is at the factory settings, which I find are excellent!

RW .22HP on LOW power setting - and very accurate with the 18.13 JSBs:

18.13 gr @ 853 fps = 29.3 fpe ES = 4 (with a shot count of between 180-190 shots, going from 250 bar down to 138 bar)



RW .22HP on HIGH power setting - and very accurate with the 25.39 JSBs:

25.39 RD @ 920 fps avg, = 47.73 fpe ES = 8

These settings are in a very sweet spot for accuracy AND high shot count.

RE: RW HP .22 Air Use

My rifle is using about 2 BAR of air for every shot fired. Air use is unchanged for velocities from 940 through 970. Moreover, I'm getting the same issue whether using a buna or a viton breech seal.

Is 2 BAR normal?

Thanks.

The other Mark B.

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2 bar per shot is quite a waste of air.

I'm getting this with my RW .22HP:

RW .22HP on LOW power setting:

18.13 gr JSB @ average 853 fps = 29.3 fpe ES = 4 (best accuracy with the 18.13 gr JSB)

Average # of shots, per bar of air used: 1.65

Average bar of air used, per shot: .61

Average shot count from 250 bar down to 138 bar: 185 



RW .22HP on HIGH power setting:

25.39 RD @ average 920 fps = 47.73 fpe ES = 8 (best accuracy with the 25.39 JSB)



Average # of shots, per bar of air used: .89

Average bar of air used ,per shot: 1.13

Average shot count from 250 bar down to 150 bar: 89

Thanks to all contributing to all this info. I’m sure I’m not the only RedWolf owner following and learning from this thread. Just an observation from what’s been said here and please correct me if this is incorrect. The accuracy of the redesigned monsters doesn’t seem to be affected by velocity from a low of around 920fps up to 970 or even a bit higher. 

I suppose that’s not confirmed as there isn’t really the same clear comparison for accuracy as there is for velocity and shot count? 

It is also clear the “factory” settings vary quite a bit. On high my RedWolf shoots the monsters at around 938fps. but I’ve seen people with higher and lower figures.

I don’t have a programmer yet and would get one if I could be convinced that I could achieve better accuracy by tuning velocity. Shot count isn’t so crucial for me personally. 

Again thanks for all the hard work documented here. 

The o-rings we use are mostly Nitrile rubber, also known as Buna-N. The "70" is the Hardness, on the SHORE A scale. Viton is a different type of copolymer than Nitrile (BUNA-N) rubber. They have differing properties, but are meant for approximately the same job.

BUNA-N has excellent oil resistant properties, where VITON has excellent high temperature, chemical and oxidative resistant properties.

Note I replaced the viton breech seal with buna a few days back because I was told that groups opened up with viton. I have not yet checked this out with my gun yet, but will.

Other Mark B. I been on the same Viton seal for almost 2 months, no grouping issues, same seal I shot ebr with...

Click to expand...

The same for me. I blew out several of the stock o'rings before I got to the Viton. I've had the viton o'ring in for at least a couple of months and it works perfectly.

Other_Mark, you keep saying "buna" and it confuses me just a bit. Buna is a description of the hardness of the rubber and all o'rings have a buna or durometer rating. The stock o'ring is 70 buna and the viton is buna 75. So they are virtually the same. But the vition is tougher and as has been my personal experience, I get far more shots from the viton with no change in accuracy. 

Now one thing I DID notice is in going to a buna 90 . The 90 is too hard and it is more difficult to feed the pellets like you describe. It also let a little air leak past the probe and I lost some fps. But since I went to the Viton 75, it has worked perfectly.

So are you talking about going to a 90 when you are having issues?



Crusher

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Excuse me for not being precise. Imprecision can be confusing which was not my intent.

I changed out the Viton 75 Durameter oring with an original spec Nitirle Buna 70 oring.

The most recent replacement took place Friday evening (see my 28 Oct 18 post for details). I let loose 60 or so pellets Saturday before and during a match. I let loose another 200 today and the Nitirle Buna 70 breech seal oring was unseated toward the end of the day. Half of the Nitirle Buna 70 breech seal oring came out of the internal groove and folded over with some actually sticking out of the muzzle.

I'll pull the barrel tonight, clear the failed Nitirle breech seal oring, and install a Viton oring.

I'm removing the barrel BTW because breech seal installation (regardless of whether a Nitirle breech seal or a Viton breech seal oring is used) is a bit easier than if the barrel is left in place.

Lest I forget, I never considered a Nitirle Buna 90 breech seal oring as I did not see much discussion surrounding such a move here on AirgunNation. Basically, I've been following the lead of others that share their discoveries or insights.

Best wishes.

The other Mark B.

Twice I've had breech seals become dislodged - on examination they have appeared to be un-worn. Both of those times I re-lubed and re-installed the same O-rings, only to have them become dislodged once-again, not long after.

Now, when a breech seal becomes dislodged, regardless of how perfect it my seem to be, I just replace it - and gain much longer life before having an issue again.

It isn’t necessary to remove the barrel. Myself and others find it very simple to use a wooden dowel or a Dewey nylon coated rod (with thread protector on rod) to “back-up” the new o-ring while installing. Install new o-ring at breech and use the dowel or rod fed in from the muzzle to manipulate the o-ring and not allow it to get past the groove (it’s home)

BTW, if an o-ring is forced/blown from its groove, it has extruded and is weakened. It’s done and can’t be trusted. 

And, Viton 75D is THE o-ring to use in these HP Redwolf Daystates. The added 5 shore is perfect for that little extra hardness but still plenty soft to seal as a breech o-ring should and allows the pellet to pass through it without distorting the soft lead.

I have about 80 new Viton 75D o-rings for the .22 Red Wolf. If 8 of you want (10) o-rings PM me. You can send me a prestamped envelope and I’ll be happy to send you (10) .22 breech o-rings which will last you many years. 

Does anyone know how much the huntsman regal mag weights? I have to send mine back because of damage and am not able to weight it my self. 

It isn’t necessary to remove the barrel. Myself and others find it very simple to use a wooden dowel or a Dewey nylon coated rod (with thread protector on rod) to “back-up” the new o-ring while installing. Install new o-ring at breech and use the dowel or rod fed in from the muzzle to manipulate the o-ring and not allow it to get past the groove (it’s home)

BTW, if an o-ring is forced/blown from its groove, it has extruded and is weakened. It’s done and can’t be trusted. 

And, Viton 75D is THE o-ring to use in these HP Redwolf Daystates. The added 5 shore is perfect for that little extra hardness but still plenty soft to seal as a breech o-ring should and allows the pellet to pass through it without distorting the soft lead.

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^^^ Indeed.

RE: Famous last words from Red Wolf owners with a PowerSet MK2 Progammer 

"this testing is eating up some pellets"

Mark, or others.... Do you know of any attempts to change settings for one 'power level' and not the others?

I think there was a reference to this within the past couple days, and I know it goes against the instructions I've seen but my .177 shoots over 12fpe on Low, and far enough below 20fpe on High (within the flattest part of the fill) to be a recurring thought. No guesses as to what programming would flatten my 'curve' but would like to be able to shot FT at either level, within the 'sweet' fill ranges....

Mark, or others.... Do you know of any attempts to change settings for one 'power level' and not the others?

I think there was a reference to this within the past couple days, and I know it goes against the instructions I've seen but my .177 shoots over 12fpe on Low, and far enough below 20fpe on High (within the flattest part of the fill) to be a recurring thought. No guesses as to what programming would flatten my 'curve' but would like to be able to shot FT at either level, within the 'sweet' fill ranges....

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I've only reprogrammed the high power setting on my RW so far. I don't think that has caused any issues but I can't swear to it. Also, I stopped in at AoA today to pick up some pellets. Since I was in the building I asked Don if all three power settings must be reprogrammed simultaneously. He said he normally does all three, but knows of no requirement that it be done that way.

Best wishes.

The other Mark B.

RE: PowerSet MK2 information gained while at Airguns of Arizona today or by experience

I've recently heard or read discussion about a possible requirement that all three power settings be within 10 percent of each other. I asked Don about this as well. He says that such may, or may not, be something that is recommended/required/not an issue.

I asked Don about Airwolf programming with the PowerSet MK2 programmer. He said the later Airwolfs and Mark IVs used the Dual slope menu. Earlier guns used the non-compensated single slope options.

Note that I have not yet discovered any information regarding changing pressure bit settings or intentional high slope and low slope changes to impact gun performance

Anyone with better information than that contained within this post should correct me as loudly and forcibly as possible. Moreover, please post anything new that you learn regarding PowSet MK2 programming.

Finally, I need some input regarding my in progress “Red Wolf Programming with the “Daystate Powerset Programmer”” guide. Should I post newer revisions versions here or make a separate post outside of this very, very, very, very long thread. Please share your thoughts on this. 

Bet wishes.

The other Mark B.

It is a sad state that the programmer was created, produced, and sold (at a stiff price) but the use of which is poorly and inadequately developed/supported/documented - even to the importer/distributor/dealer level.

Hopefully in another year or two, the use of the programmer will be well developed and documented, so that tuning the Red Wolf will no longer be such a mystery. (Looking at you, Daystate UK!)

This forum should be renamed RW .22 All the Time.

Thank you Mark. Not ready to buy a programmer yet but I'll have more idle time this winter and might have to give it a go. I'll just to start saving up my patience and tolerance....

This forum should be renamed RW .22 All the Time.

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Agree. I started a topic a while back called, "Share your Redwolf 22HP Experience." however, I've been kinda absent for the past month due to life issues and not posting much. There's 4 pages of info on that thread.

Here's the link: Share your RedWolf 22HP Experience

I was being sarcastic. I own a Pulsar HP .25.