Texas Hunting Rules for Airguns … New rule due for filing deadline 09 July

Forums Hunting Texas Hunting Rules for Airguns … New rule due for filing deadline 09 July

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    T3PRanch
    Dealer
    Dealer

    https://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/releases/?req=20180413a&nrtype=hunt&nrspan=2018&nrsearch= This is BAD NEWS! The question is WHY is this happening? Stay tuned for more details as they surface. EDIT: Ok apparently about a month ago a TV Show went to west Texas to film a pig airgun hunt on a ranch. The ranch owner told the hunters to do head shots only but they did not obey and did body shots which of course did not immediately down the pigs. The land owner had to track the pigs down and dispatch them by other means. Unfortunately the land owner knew the Texas Game Commissioner quite well so a "tragically" placed call to the Commissioner has put us in limbo for now. Additionally Eric Henderson told me that other manufacturing parties are interfering by saying the law should be rated on ft/lb of energy instead of caliber. Strangely enough they are big bore manufacturers. For now though please plan a trip to Lubbock on the 24th of May to attend the public meeting. I'll post time and place as soon as I find out. PLEASE make your comments at this link https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/feedback/public_comment/proposals/air_gun_bow.phtml Edit: Meeting Time and place is Thursday May 24th at 9AM. Place is the Lubbock Civic Center … https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/feedback/meetings/2018/0524/agenda/ It is odd that the notice is dated for 4/13/2018 and few knew about it. Thurmond

    • This topic was modified 1 month ago by T3PRanch.
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    Brian.in.MI
    Participant
    Member

    Was just on the link you provided, pleading your case. I lived in Travis county (Austin) for 5 years and moved (back) to MI. Shared my experience as a lifelong airgun hunter. What I will contend is this: Adopt MI law.. We broached this topic years ago and it was decided that Airguns .35 cal and up were allowed. Period. CO’s (conservation officers) can’t be expected to carry a scale and a chronograph, or look up specific make/model Airguns and the FPE rating. But a set of calipers, or some “go / no-go” gauge is reasonable. By allowing .35 cal and up, you instantly eliminate almost all pellet pushers. It’s working here, fwiw. I realize this doesn’t address hunting small game with small bore air rifles, but it seems the deer / hogs are where the attention is at(?) 

    Brian

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    addertooth
    Participant
    Member

         Arizona was one of the early supporters of pro air rifle hunting laws.  If you are shooting .357 and above, and if you have the stones, you can hunt Bear, Mountain Lion, Javelina, deer, etc.
        About the only things you cannot hunt with an air rifle are Elk, Buffalo and Moose.  Turkey require a shotgun or bow.  There are a few air-shotguns out there, so technically you can hunt turkey with an air propelled device.  Airbows are still a bit slow on acceptance, but you must hunt in the regular rifle hunting season.  They do not (yet) have any hunting seasons carved out for just air rifles; bows and muzzle loaders do have unique seasons.  
        I always keep in mind my Benjamin Bulldog is only around 200 FPE;.  A classical 22 long rifle round is around 100 FPE.   So, about twice the energy of a 22 cal powder burner.  
    Some states have a sweet spot for caliber.  If you are hunting with 30 caliber and below, you can hunt with an air rifle within 1/4 mile of a structure without notifying (and gaining permission) from the owner.  So in areas where it seems like there is a country house about every quarter mile, smaller caliber air rifles can make sense for smaller game and predators/fur bearers.
     

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    Bullfrog
    Participant
    Member

    I’m not surprised that some certain manufacturers might be pushing for a fpe minimum. If you make the strongest production airgun in the world, it would male sense from a marketing perspective to make that line of guns virtually the only guns legal to hunt with. I’m guessing this manufacturer is also located in Texas?  ;)  If so, you got a lot more going on than just hunting ethics driving the issue. Its both fortunate and unfortunate that so much money is involved in the air gun industry. 

    FPE doesn’t kill regarding air rifles. Whether you dump 100fpe or 300fpe in an animal, its still chump change compared to what a firearm does.

    The size of the hole is what kills with an airgun. Airguns are bows by other means. You need enough energy to punch a hole thru the lungs with a hole big enough to not clot. That’s the only relevance of fpe regarding AGs. 

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Bullfrog.
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    Bullfrog
    Participant
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    BTW, hogs were already legal to hunt with airguns in Texas without caliber restriction. Many if not most of the airgun videos showing hog hunting on youtube come from Texas. What an amazing coincidence that a complaint like this was made on the eve of legalizing airguns for game other than hogs. 

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    T3PRanch
    Dealer
    Dealer

    @bullfrog,   Nope the “suspected” manufacturer in question is not AirForce and is a matter of fact from out of state. (in their defense, since I do not know any details in this sub segment of the issue nor have I spoken to the company personally, they may have been called by the commission as an expert witness so to speak)

    I got word from Alan Cain (TPWD Texas Whitetail Team Leader) that the precipitating action WAS in fact the hog hunt I mentioned above.
    Come on …… A Body shot on PIGS with a high power firearm is not ALWAYS effective and these yahoo’s use an airgun? Not responsible hunters by any fashion but you cannot legislate common sense or responsibility. This planet’s societies have been trying that for 7K years now!

    Thurmond

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    Brian.in.MI
    Participant
    Member

    What air rifles / caliber were the hogs shot with? Were they actually wounded / gut shot? Or did the land owner not have the patience to wait a few minutes for a vitals shot to bleed out? 

    Pretty bad timing in all of this ? 

    Brian

     

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    Bullfrog
    Participant
    Member

    Good, I’m glad its not Airforce. I’m starting to fall in love with their platforms. My brother has a .45 Texan and I have a .25 Condor. I am planning on ordering a Texan SS next time they go on sale and on featuring the guns on my channel. I was afraid I’d have to swear them off. 

    Whoever it is, they need to be exposed IF, and that’s an “if”, they are working against open airgun hunting opportunities. 

    Shooting a hog in the meat shield is questionable with any weapon other than a firearm unless you know to shoot them in the armpit when the leg is extended forward. 

     

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    Locker50
    Participant
    Member

    Its idiots like that , that give hunters a bad name.
    Now do you think that land owner will ever allow an air gun hunter to hunt his land again?

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Locker50.
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    T3PRanch
    Dealer
    Dealer

    “Brian.in.MI”What air rifles / caliber were the hogs shot with? Were they actually wounded / gut shot? Or did the land owner not have the patience to wait a few minutes for a vitals shot to bleed out? 
    Pretty bad timing in all of this  
    Brian

     

    
I do not know caliber and hesitate to mention any brand because of certain business relationships I maintain (which should come to light by weeks end I hope … stay tuned for that development for me personally) but the gun is available from .177 thru .45 and claims these power levels .25 cal=64 fpe, .30 cal=97 fpe, .357 cal=142.5 fpe, .45 cal=225 fpe.
    The main point here is the hunters ignored the hosting land owners explicit instructions of exactly what type of shots he wanted these hogs taken with. There was “likely” some “showing off” for the film crew present as well if I know human nature. What I am not sure of is if these were in or out of state hunters.

    Being a suspicious sort I also wonder (just a tiny little bit) if the thing could have been staged to throw a fly into the ointment to stop the legislation by a company/s with a vested interest AGAINST dilution of their firearms hunting supplies market by “Airguns”!

    Thurmond

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by T3PRanch.
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    BR549
    Participant
    Member

    Guys, responding to the TPWD commission with comment is greatly appreciated! Please support the regulations as written if you can. A united front is needed. The situation is critical. Please respond online, and or in person at the meeting, in a positive manner. Much appreciation to all.

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by BR549.
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    T3PRanch
    Dealer
    Dealer

    Another thing we could do is show up in large numbers! A couple of hundred avid airgunners just appearing at the meeting would have a significant impact! ;)

    Thurmond

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    Bullfrog
    Participant
    Member

    “T3PRanch”Being a suspicious sort I also wonder (just a tiny little bit) if the thing could have been staged to throw a fly into the ointment to stop the legislation by a company/s with a vested interest AGAINST dilution of their firearms hunting supplies market by “Airguns”!
    Thurmond

    
I too find myself being suspicious. I’ve just seen too much in my time and the timing to too suspect. AGs have been legal for hogs in Texas for a long time. So why did some land owner come forward now to report a bad experience with some hog hunters, and what bearing does that have on hunting non-hog game? Hogs are a lot tougher than deer.

    And yet, my initial suspicion of Airforce was apparently unfounded and I am again reminded of the dangers of drawing a conclusion on little facts. Ultimately, there’s lots of groups or individuals that could have a motive to try to shut down expanded airgun hunting opportunities. If there’s any hi-jinx involved, we may never know.

    I do think that given the seriousness of what’s at stake (not just air gun hunting itself, but that a state wildlife agency is willing to reverse a major policy decision based on the phone call of an individual), all parties need to be named and all accounts given. Otherwise it won’t be possible to test the validity of the accounts or hold someone accountable. The land owner needs to be named so it can be determined whether he has any biases that might make his account suspect. His influence with the Commission also needs to be examined.  And the hunting show in question and people involved need to be named both so they can give their side of the story and be taken to task by the AG community if warranted. 

     

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Bullfrog.
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    Kinetic45
    Participant
    Member

    I was REALLY looking forward to deer hunting with my Texan… sigh.
    I was worried about just this situation occurring where a novice yahoo shot and wounded a deer
    Well, when the first comment period opened I said/commented that based on 25 years of pistol hunting (low power compared to PB rifles and comparable to a class of big bore air rifles) here in Texas and other states and about the same number of years shooting air rifles (Bought my first 30 cal air rifle in early 90’s) that they needed to set the caliber to .355 or larger for deer.  I have shot close to 45 hogs here in Texas (bout half with a re-valved/modded .25 Mrod n slugs) and have only lost ONE but I do not shoot unless I KNOW it will be lethal… and know my trajectory and FPE at distances AND understand the anatomy of the animal and how to reach the vital zones from different angles. Unfortunately, I knew that most air rifle hunters would not take the time to learn all that and a wounding that went viral is only a matter of time (FYI – Sadly, I have known and encountered multiple bow and muzzle loader hunters who have HORRIBLE records and I wish there was a way to ban them but no one says anything about their sport).

    We had a discussion on another forum about measuring FPE and how a game warden could do it in the field – it’s possible in a variety of ways that are not THAT difficult.
    I have a pocket chronograph that is stuck on the muzzle and shot through (Chinese) that cost less than $50 and is very accurate compared to my ProChrono.  Add that to a pocket digital scale to weight the pellet/bullet and calculate the FPE easily with a phone app like Strelok Pro or ChairGun.
    My recommendation was minimum .355, with 120 FPE at the muzzle based on my experience.

    Note that although I’m not proud of it, I had poor relatives growing up in East Texas in the 60’s that to have any meat in the house, I know shot deer out of season, with 22LR’s… one shot to the brain, one kill, usually in the pea patch.  And everybody local’s ‘enemy’ was the game warden Neiswender who was nicknamed the “Sidewinder” so again, there is ‘confirmation’ that 120 FPE will kill a deer, haha… another sigh.

    Another Elephant in the room is that high pressure gas is ENERGY and handled foolishly or in ignorance somebody is eventually going to get killed using the wrong fitting or hose or handling a tank carelessly.  I also recommended that the Hunter Safety course have a chapter on handling HPA and the fill equipment a novice needs to know about.

    I have noted the meeting on my calendar and am planning to go.
     

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Kinetic45.
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    T3PRanch
    Dealer
    Dealer

    It is always a matter of shot placement. I don’t care if it is a PCP or a PB rifle in .30 or bigger.

    How many thousands of animals over the years were lost to bad shot placement with ALL hunting gear? According to game wardens I have spoken to the number is definitely high.

    This issue is mainly a PEOPLE problem … Uneducated in the proper shooting methods, kill zones and capabilities of equipment or just down right belligerent as has become much of society today (you can’t tell me what to do or instruct me because it is my right to do as I wish syndrome).

    What these pig hunters that precipitated this event displayed is a total disrespect for guidance, rules and authority. Unfortunately as I said earlier in this thread you cannot legislate away irresponsibility. Never could, never will. :(

    Personally I ALWAYS want the most power I can get. I am centered on .357 and .457 for my Big Bore Airguns. Would have loved to use my .257 or a 6 mm because of very flat trajectory. It is perfectly capable IF I do my part with shot placement.

    Thurmond

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by T3PRanch.
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    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

                 Well   was told a few things in confidence that am not at liberty to discuss.

      But basically Parks and Wildlife see air gunners as a bunch of stupid idiots.
      Delusional about the power of a pellet to quickly and humanly kill.
      What brought it all to a boil was hogs
             They point out when some dumb ass says hes going hog hunting with a
    grossly under powered air gun all others wish him well
             They feel we can not be trusted to exercise responsible use or conduct
    ourselves in an ethical manner. And have the evidence to prove it! 
            

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    T3PRanch
    Dealer
    Dealer

    @fuznut that is definitely NOT the message I am getting from my TPWD contacts. The TPWD Team that presented the rule change is all for the rule as it stands as we should all be likewise for the sake of a unified voice in this issue. ;)

    In unity there is power. A house divided cannot stand! We can disagree later if needed but for now lets show we want this pushed through without delay so this Fall will be open to “OUR” choice of game harvesting tool!

    Thurmond

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    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

              Thurman    Trust me brother you got my vote and then some. Am not at all
               surprised to hear you are getting a different slant to the story TPW is a big 
               place with a bunch of different divisions.  I am talking with old friends behind
               closed doors.  Never once heard anything about a film crew ?  Cant really
               say much except hogs did indeed come up.  Dude im not there going against
               this im fighting for it but am seeing some ugly things and a lot of stupidity.
               that is quite frankly sickening and undefinable.
              You hit the nail on the head when you said people problem.  
               We are on the same side fighting for the same thing don’t kill the messenger
               just because you don’t like the news.   Lets both prey it passes and yes fight
               together to get it through.                                       

                                                                                                        Fuznut
               

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    Bullfrog
    Participant
    Member

    I too think unity among air gunners is paramount, both among hunters and among industry reps. 

    I understand that many of us have differing opinions on where the lines between caliber and fpe should be drawn. I wouldn’t expect someone who had an opinion that differed from mine to sacrifice their opinion for the sake of unity. The key is figuring out how to maintain differing opinions while still maintaining unity on what matters. 

    Good luck to ya’ll Texans. I hope ya’ll can preserve your new airgun hunting privileges. 

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    Michael
    Keymaster
    Keymaster

    As airgunners we are a unique breed.  Most airgunners pride themselves in squeezing out almost unbelievable accuracy through testing, tweaking, & thoroughly knowing their equipment.  In my opinion hunting with an airgun is a combination of archery & precision shooting.  An archer is commonly limited to 50y or less & relies on an accurate shot to a vital organ.  Death is caused by loss of blood from razor sharp blades.  A precision shooter prides himself/herself on hitting the tiniest of targets through fine tuning, experience, & reading the wind.  

    While archers and airgunners rely primarily on shot placement for a clean kill, powder burners need not be as concerned because of the insane amount of energy they produce.  

    I’m relatively new to Texas and its laws; but from what I understand, for many years archers were required to use equipment that met a specific draw weight and/or minimum FPS.  TPWD overturned that rule because they decided that FPE had very little to do with a humane death.  Granted there are a few high powered air rifles that generate an impressive amount of energy, but personally I believe that accuracy, knowing your equipment, & knowing your game is far more important.


    (170 pound wild boar taken with .25 caliber / 60 FPE)

    If you’re an airgunner and you believe that hunting with an airgun is ethical, then please follow this link & leave a comment https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/feedback/public_comment/proposals/air_gun_bow.phtml

    or you can attend in person on Thursday May 24th at 9AM at the Lubbock Civic Center https://tpwd.texas.gov/business/feedback/meetings/2018/0524/agenda/
     

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Michael.
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