Target range in FT match

Jim...totally agree with you. 


Strangely, though....I see certain behaviors in other shooting disciplines that seem to enforce the idea that outside perception is what actually matters in this day of social media.


As an example...I shoot Steel Challenge. In Steel Challenge...there are Centerfire pistol classes, Rimfire pistol and rifle classes, and pistol caliber carbine classes. In the centerfire pistol classes...you must start with your hands above your shoulders in the “surrender” position. When the buzzer sounds, you must draw your weapon and engage the steel plates. In the other classes you are not required to draw, and begin from the low ready position. Now factor in that in the other classes you are shooting a virtually recoilless cartridge and you can use optics and a rifle stock. It doesn’t take a genius to see the massive disadvantage that a centerfire shooter faces when comparing times. I see guys from the matches that shot with a Rimfire rifle and optics boasting on social media all the time about their overall high scores. I have also witnessed many guys switch from centerfire to Rimfire rifle optics just so they could get their times up. I have no doubt that they know full well that they are not really competitive with the top centerfire guys...but they seem just as happy. Where I shoot...there are very few centerfire guys anymore compared to the PCC and Rimfire guys. I cannot personally understand it...but it’s, nonetheless, very prevalent.

Mike 

"At some point Hunter Division shooters are going to have to quit complaining about the magnification limit being a huge disadvantage.."

Just to clarify, and I'm admittedly probably in the huge minority of Hunters, I don't complain about the magnification limit being a huge disadvantage; I EMBRACE IT! Was it up to me, and as I argued strenuously at the time, the limit would (still) be 12X... or less! 

But then again, I embrace, and often purposely put myself at equipment disadvantage to my competition. Makes winning just that much sweeter!

I don't believe these New Millennium titles, captured with a Crosman Co2 rifle that cost $23.95 brand new in the 1960s, and converted to HPA pistol with nothing but hand tools and obstinate determination, would be nearly so sweet if secured with a $3000 rig. But that's just how I get my jollies. I don't expect normal folks to understand; much less relate to my Neanderthal approach to competition.

Ron, my homemade guns have a lot more titles than your homemade guns....Hahaha

Just having fun.


Mike

"Ron, my homemade guns have a lot more titles than your homemade guns….Hahaha " ROFLMAO Mike! True dat!

Obviously my cryptic comment about $3000 rigs wan't cryptic ENOUGH to fool you. But in case you've missed them before, I'll take another opportunity to not only commend you and your incredible airguns, but sincerely thank you for contributing to field target in general, and my baby specifically; Pistol Field Target.

Should I ever feel a need for another FT pistol... and make my fortune, I'll buy one of your "home-made" guns! Keep up the fantastic work, Bud.

Respectfully,

R

P.S.- I do wonder if any one of your home-made guns has more titles captured by one pair of hands than mine does, though. 

Jim, I didn't make that suggestion to inflate newcomers ego's. Now that you mention it maybe enough to get them to come back a few more times, or by the time they are hooked just too much invested to get out. I remember us both on the same side of that Scope power increase and even the Freestyle class. Although I would like to see Field Target grow a little bit I'm not sure the past AFFTA Directors or Governors really want it to grow. Maybe they know something that we don't. Would love to see you in Morrow Bay or Oregon but only time will tell. Regards, Bill

Mr. Robinson, Just the other day I fumbled accross a business card you gave me when I was down there in Texas about 2009 for the FT Nationals. We have familiar backgrounds in Archery. Seems yours was always the primitive way with long bows, recurves and airguns you whittled yourself. I've always preferred the advantages of technology (Mr. Allen's Compounds and the best air rifle money can buy.) At 73 I have realized that I should of not purchased so many Top Guns and spent a little more on Scopes. Probably would of if I were in the Open PCP, Open Piston, or WFTF. Staying in the Hunter class actually saved me a few thousand dollars in scopes. Heck, with all the money you saved on equipment I would think you could afford a Thomas by now, If you really wanted one. Take care, Bill

"Ron, my homemade guns have a lot more titles than your homemade guns….Hahaha

" ROFLMAO Mike! True dat!

Obviously my cryptic comment about $3000 rigs wan't cryptic ENOUGH to fool you. But in case you've missed them before, I'll take another opportunity to not only commend you and your incredible airguns, but sincerely thank you for contributing to field target in general, and my baby specifically; Pistol Field Target.

Should I ever feel a need for another FT pistol... and make my fortune, I'll buy one of your "home-made" guns! Keep up the fantastic work, Bud.

Respectfully,

R

P.S.- I do wonder if any one of your home-made guns has more titles captured by one pair of hands as mine does, though. 

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Look into Bill Rabbit's GP and National placings.

Nice to hear from you Bill. I do occasionally notice posts from you here; but wasn't sure you'd care to (still) hear from The Most Provocative Man In Airgunning.  

Lotta lead has passed through the air since I gave you that card, huh? I always enjoyed the times I got to see you, and really enjoyed those times I was lucky enough to be squadded with you. Not so much a third individual we were also sometimes squadded with. 

Hope you're still enjoying field target, and all's well with you and your's. 

Best Regards,

RR

am always intrigued by how we try to entice new shooters into joining us by figuring out ways to inflate their scores. I'm pretty sure that no matter how you count it a shooter knows that he hit 5 out of 50 targets in a match and that is not good. They will either be inspired to learn how to improve or they will decide this game is not for them.

Jim in Sacramento

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Jim, I certainly agree with the majority of your post. The two point for a knockdown up in Canada was due to hunter being entry level and we had a lot of kids from about 9 to 15 shooting hunter. A nine year old will be much happier with a 60 out of 120 than they would a two or three. We also treat the target hit as a hit and a point they have earned. Knock downs are bonuses and reason for excitement. Hunter is different up here as we have very few people who remain in hunter for more than a few years. In the US, there is a hardcore group of hunters who have no desire to shoot any other class and that is great. We adapted the rules to suit the new and the young shooters. 

In the future, we may have a group that shoot hunter and have no desire to shoot other classes and the rules will evolve to suit them. Age and/or experience could be factored in to creating two hunter classes. This is certainly likely, since many of our more experienced hunter folks want to shoot in the matches like the Crosman and Pyramid Cup in the US, so they want to hone their skills.

Tim

am always intrigued by how we try to entice new shooters into joining us by figuring out ways to inflate their scores. I'm pretty sure that no matter how you count it a shooter knows that he hit 5 out of 50 targets in a match and that is not good. They will either be inspired to learn how to improve or they will decide this game is not for them.

Jim in Sacramento

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Jim, I certainly agree with the majority of your post. The two point for a knockdown up in Canada was due to hunter being entry level and we had a lot of kids from about 9 to 15 shooting hunter. A nine year old will be much happier with a 60 out of 120 than they would a two or three. We also treat the target hit as a hit and a point they have earned. Knock downs are bonuses and reason for excitement. Hunter is different up here as we have very few people who remain in hunter for more than a few years. In the US, there is a hardcore group of hunters who have no desire to shoot any other class and that is great. We adapted the rules to suit the new and the young shooters. 

In the future, we may have a group that shoot hunter and have no desire to shoot other classes and the rules will evolve to suit them. Age and/or experience could be factored in to creating two hunter classes. This is certainly likely, since many of our more experienced hunter folks want to shoot in the matches like the Crosman and Pyramid Cup in the US, so they want to hone their skills.

Tim

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I can totally see your point Tim! That scoring system is a great strategy.

Our club has a lot of advanced FT shooters so I honestly feel bad for new shooters who only knockdown 10-20% of the targets. 

Ron, I'm not that thin skinned although you did beat me up pretty good with a e-mail one evening sometime ago. Hey, we all have our opinions and I never held that against you. Hang in there and maybe we will cross paths again in the future. I'm not certain what the future will bring but if it is field target I'll do my best to be there. Be safe, Bill

Jim, I certainly agree with the majority of your post. ..............................
The two point for a knockdown up in Canada was due to hunter being entry level and we had a lot of kids from about 9 to 15 shooting hunter. A nine year old will be much happier with a 60 out of 120 than they would a two or three. 

Tim

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Our club has a lot of advanced FT shooters so I honestly feel bad for new shooters who only knockdown 10-20% of the targets.

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Steve our club is the same as yours, with at least a handful of nationally ranked shooters attending every match, our courses always lean to the difficult side of the spectrum. This, as you and Tim point out, usually spells a nightmare for first time shooters who often show up at a match with a Chinese break barrel and a 4x scope. What we have done to address this is to have a well tuned but inexpensive PCP (Marauder, Gauntlet, etc) available for first time shooters to use. We pair these people up with an experienced shooter, who teaches the new person the basic skills necessary to be successful in field target, give them the yardages and holdovers and answers all their questions. We always make the new shooters shoot hunter class. Even doing this we are lucky to get a new shooter above 20-25%. I am guessing that we get maybe 1 out of every 5 new shooters to come back for a second match and maybe 1 out of 10 to last more than one season.

Field Target is one of the most enjoyable shooting competitions I have participated in and our club is blessed with a wonderful group of people who are fun to be around. Our match participation has held steady over several years at 15 to 20+ shooters per match because we strive to make sure each match is fun for everyone who attends. 

Now to get this back on track, range finding and associated dope calculations are the hardest thing for new shooters to master and some never fully grasp the concept. This is why we campaigned so hard a few years ago for the recognition of an Unlimited/Freestyle class in AAFTA which would allow laser range finders. It was rejected by the powers that be and left to local clubs to deal with. Unfortunately it has become apparent over the years that AAFTA has no real desire to grow the Field Target sport here in the USA,

Jim in Sacramento

...Our club has a lot of advanced FT shooters so I honestly feel bad for new shooters who only knockdown 10-20% of the targets.

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... our courses always lean to the difficult side of the spectrum. .... Even doing this we are lucky to get a new shooter above 20-25%. ...

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In the 7+ years of matches on the Morro Bay range, I don't think there has ever been a score as low as 25%, yet no one has ever cleaned a course. Even a brand new shooter will usually score quite a bit higher than 25%. The trick is to set courses with a high standard deviation of difficulty. We still have a significant number of difficult targets, so the top shooters will still be equally challenged, but the beginners will have plenty of easy targets to knock down. Maybe AAFTA should require that a course have at least 25% of the targets at <20 difficulty rating. That said, I don't think it is really the issue for keeping more people in the game.

Jim and Scott, 

Yeah we've had people show up that have only shot a gun a few times so "the whole" thing was quite overwhelming to them. I think we all, including the newb's themselves, didn't expect much but one still feels sorry for them. 

Then there's the people that think they are good shots, and they might be with shotguns, etc, but FT is still "all new" to them. I actually feel worse for them because I can see by their countenance that they are bruised inside and embarrassed by their low score.

It was funny one time! Our club in an attempt to get people interested in FT started putting up a 3rd "EASY" target on every lane, and we'd mark it with a little flag. So a newb could pick which of the regular targets to shoot at twice and then he/she could shoot the easy target twice. Well one guy showed up a couple months before our state match and he apparently had advanced quickly in his skill level. We still put that 3rd target out for state and this guy ended up with the high score, LOL!!!! It turned out to be a embarrassment for us, lol. We had to take the guy aside and explain to him that we couldn't count his score as top AZ champ. We quit putting out that 3rd easy target shortly after.

Nowadays we have a few gimmy's and a few very difficult shots, but the rest are a tad above medium difficulty. 

Well I suppose that only a few newbs will have a true passion for FT like we have. I guess one has it or they don't???

But I think Tim's idea in his situation has merit.

Oh, and Jim, I've been campaigning for our club to buy a club rifle for many years now but the powers that be aren't into the idea so some of us take the newbs under our wing and they use our gear with us.

Ha, I have another funny story about this subject. I invited a friend and he shot with me the first time he came out, no drama and he had fun. The next month he came again but this time shot with one of the officers of our club using the officers gun and such. Three things happened, #1 was the newb got confused and turned the elevation knob the wrong way(one revolution off, lol) which caused the officer to miss a few times before he figured out what happened. #2 then the newb got confused again later and turned the windage knob which really frustrated the officer and it took him a whole lane to figure out what happened, LOL. All this really miffed the officer, he tried to hold back his frustration but...#3 the poor newb never came back. IIRC this all took place about the time the club got adamant about "no practice shots". Meaning - when someone has shot their lane and wants to see where they missed so they take a few extra shots to find out. 

I'd sure like to see Freestyle in AAFTA. I've got plenty of other stories about that subject, LOL!!!! 

I do seem to think FT is a game you either gotta like or fall back on fishing / golfing. From my history with Archery 3-D IBO style the game is almost identical with only equipment exceptions and the number of shots you take at each animal. The game had popularity across the Nation. Ya Da Ya da Ya Da. Giving everyone half the possible score for a face place hit can't hurt anyone and only help the new or poorly equipped shooters. I think we all agree that knocking down targets is fun. Hitting a face plate is not quite as exciting but it wasn't actually a miss and should be worth something. In a real hunting situation even a shot that impacts 1/2" to a 1" out side a fatal KZ will usually terminate the animal. I really always hated to compare Field target to Hunting because FT is a competition and Hunting is called a sport. Having been a bowhunter most of my life I always appreciated the practice that 3-D Archery gave us. It was the best practice for the real deal. It taught us how to shoot arrows accurately rather than pluck them or fling them. Anyway, it is food for thought and if we don't care to see more new shooters join our ranks than lets not change a thing.

Bill 

Being we're telling stories or talking of our clubs and there membership health / desire to compete .... here is our clubs general status ( SVFTC -- Sacramento valley Field Target Club )

Our club like many flux in participation year to year month to month. Tho we have @ 35-40 members with our average monthly matches 18-24 individuals. This has the SVFTC one of the countries Largest clubs ! ...... YET, of these folks who randomly shoot our monthly club matches ONLY @ 6-8 of them go to Sanctioned matches be them State or GP's.



What this tells / shows us is that while FT locally has a strong following and we have had great success putting on monthly FUN matches ..... The Majority of these folks simply don't appear to take it seriously enough to actually COMPETE at a larger venue and really challenge them self ?

So make me think it is more that Optic power, Class choices etc .... It is LACK in taking FT seriously being more akin to amateur golf verses pro

My apologies to Skip in WV. He started it with a scope enquiry I believe and it is true that the distance to the target is a big factor to hits or miss. I seem to of hijacked it into a new scoring system to improve attendance. Must be the age of my bones or to the very least a senior moment. It certainly did run its course with a fair summation of opinions. Most of which have been here or on the old yellow many times before. I truly believe the cost to go to the big shoots is another factor. Having shot about every National since 2006 and all have required Travel, Lodging, Food, Reg, Rrental car most of the times, ect. I would guess a $750 to $1200 price tag would be a fair estimate per event if you travel alone. Add another $400 - $650 if you are traveling together with your wife by air. You gotta Love to do it if you can afford it. I must say it has always been one of the top events I have always looked forward to every year. This year with all that is going on could be a coin toss for me if it isn't cancelled. Heck, I think I'm rambling again ;>)

If we stay on the 2/1 scoring thought, I recall shooting a PFT event on a course set for rifle. Scoring was 2 kill/1 face hit. I actually ended up with most kills for pistol but lost to total points. There will always be outlying circumstances to muddy up otherwise perfectly logical solutions. As an aside, I also advocate for the “Freestyle” or Unlimited category. Without broad sanction, it hasn’t really seemed to attract more shooters. Given pandemic restrictions, who knows what events will be available. Meanwhile, I prop open the basement door, barricade the stairs and shoot out to the big tree at 3/8” reduced kill zones 18 yards away. It ain’t perfect but I have been able to reduce the number of pellet tins holding just a few loosely identified contents. Oh, wine corks suspended from a line dance wildly on hits, entertain by timing shots AND react to breezes. Whatever it takes. I trust all remain safe and sane. Sure do miss getting together. Guess we’ll appreciate what we’ve been fortunate to share.