Sorting Pellets for precision
- Thread starter thomasair
- Start date
I’m with Mike. It’s just not worth the time and effort to try and get some lots of pellets to shoot well in my gun.
My experience with the 177 JSB Monsters is very similar to that described by Kim. The older lots shot much better than current production. The significant time and effort to sort/weigh/head size pellets from an inferior lot does not Improve results on target. Some lots just don’t shoot well in my gun....so rather than waste additional time trying to make them shoot in my gun, I just test a different lot. I get the best results by testing the lot at 60 yards and see how they shoot. Inferior lots show up very quickly and I don’t waste anymore time on them. When I find a lot that shoots well in my gun; I buy as many cans as I can.
My experience with the 177 JSB Monsters is very similar to that described by Kim. The older lots shot much better than current production. The significant time and effort to sort/weigh/head size pellets from an inferior lot does not Improve results on target. Some lots just don’t shoot well in my gun....so rather than waste additional time trying to make them shoot in my gun, I just test a different lot. I get the best results by testing the lot at 60 yards and see how they shoot. Inferior lots show up very quickly and I don’t waste anymore time on them. When I find a lot that shoots well in my gun; I buy as many cans as I can.
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Without getting technical, here is my rationale to justify pellet sorting.
Show me a perfect tin of pellets.
I challenge anyone to show me a tin of pellets without any defects, to include abnormally sized pellets.
Show me a tin of pellets where they are all exactly the same.
You're not gonna.
Every single tin has pellets that deserve discarded because they are different than the other pellets in the tin.
Pellets are produced in batches of hundreds of thousands at a time.
You're telling me they're all perfect?
No. That is a nonsensical assumption.
Unless I was taught incorrectly, the key to marksmanship is consistency.
You must do everything the same every time if you expect a consistent, repeatable result.
Pellet sorting is not a magic elixir that will make up for poor fundamentals or environmental conditions, but it will put you in a position where you can expect a consistent result.
That is why I sort pellets.
When I miss, it's my fault.
-Donnie
Show me a perfect tin of pellets.
I challenge anyone to show me a tin of pellets without any defects, to include abnormally sized pellets.
Show me a tin of pellets where they are all exactly the same.
You're not gonna.
Every single tin has pellets that deserve discarded because they are different than the other pellets in the tin.
Pellets are produced in batches of hundreds of thousands at a time.
You're telling me they're all perfect?
No. That is a nonsensical assumption.
Unless I was taught incorrectly, the key to marksmanship is consistency.
You must do everything the same every time if you expect a consistent, repeatable result.
Pellet sorting is not a magic elixir that will make up for poor fundamentals or environmental conditions, but it will put you in a position where you can expect a consistent result.
That is why I sort pellets.
When I miss, it's my fault.
-Donnie
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Hi Donnie...your rationale is the exact same as everyone who sorts because it sounds logical on the surface. Nobody argues with the surface logic.
The trouble is that nobody can prove that Head sorting is at all beneficial over the long term using well orchestrated testing.
Most of the top BR shooters that I’m friends with gave it up a long time ago but continue to move forward in the game....and never lost any ground.
The selfish truth is that I hope everyone that I compete against spends all their spare time sorting instead of practicing.
Mike
The trouble is that nobody can prove that Head sorting is at all beneficial over the long term using well orchestrated testing.
Most of the top BR shooters that I’m friends with gave it up a long time ago but continue to move forward in the game....and never lost any ground.
The selfish truth is that I hope everyone that I compete against spends all their spare time sorting instead of practicing.
Mike
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I want to clarify my first post, I believe I muddied up the water some? I shoot them, see if they are accurate? If they meet my standards, I buy more quickly, “simple” The reason I muddled the waters is my testing to find and understand why some shoot More accurately? This is where I wasted a lot of time! One more thing, I’ve done all the measuring, Weighing, inspection, culling, sizing etc. to no avail, they shoot or they don’t! I will give them a quick glance as I insert Them into my barrel For obvious defects that’s all!. I test indoor @ 17yds in winter, move outside @ 25m before season starts. Let me just say “I don’t shoot good enough for most of this to matter anyway
!” ( Mike posted before me or I wouldn’t have posted this...)
!” ( Mike posted before me or I wouldn’t have posted this...)Upvote 0
Joe... that is exactly what I’m saying. I’ve traveled really far down the same road. Really far.
The only logical conclusion that can be made based on the overwhelming data is that head sorting is not the answer.
Mike
The only logical conclusion that can be made based on the overwhelming data is that head sorting is not the answer.
Mike
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I know my Crown muzzle diameter is 5.43 after shooting several slugs and pellets into water and I measuring them before and after. I also know my initial barrel breach size is 5.70 and it tapers fairly quickly to 5.52 in the first 3/8 to 1/2”. Also checking to see how far the pellet probe pushes the pellet into the barrel in comparison to where a 5.50 head makes contact with the barrel.
I have currently 5.50 & 5.52 sizers and have 5.51 and 5.54 coming and will probable buy a 5.49. When sizing the heads if I do not see a contact point all the way around the head it is tossed. I then gently expand the skirt and resize the skirt to a larger size than the head. So I will be testing different head and skirt combinations to see if any are more accurate than others. That testing would include each of the 12 settings On my Crown with 5 shots each at 25 yards per each setting. So 60 shots per test.
Skirt thinness issues. In my initial pellet preening I’ve found the the current JSB Exact Jumbo already have a thin skirt wall thickness and if I am not careful I can over expand and the resizing causes the issue to be worse. The H&N Sport Snipers don’t seem to have this same issue. I believe if the skirt is too think it may deform after exit from the barrel
Right now I am assembling various pellets for testing as it is way too hot
in Phoenix to do any test shooting at least for me. All the shots will be chrono’d and I hope to provide my results for everyone so that we might have some clarity on this question.
I have currently 5.50 & 5.52 sizers and have 5.51 and 5.54 coming and will probable buy a 5.49. When sizing the heads if I do not see a contact point all the way around the head it is tossed. I then gently expand the skirt and resize the skirt to a larger size than the head. So I will be testing different head and skirt combinations to see if any are more accurate than others. That testing would include each of the 12 settings On my Crown with 5 shots each at 25 yards per each setting. So 60 shots per test.
Skirt thinness issues. In my initial pellet preening I’ve found the the current JSB Exact Jumbo already have a thin skirt wall thickness and if I am not careful I can over expand and the resizing causes the issue to be worse. The H&N Sport Snipers don’t seem to have this same issue. I believe if the skirt is too think it may deform after exit from the barrel
Right now I am assembling various pellets for testing as it is way too hot
in Phoenix to do any test shooting at least for me. All the shots will be chrono’d and I hope to provide my results for everyone so that we might have some clarity on this question. Upvote 0
Mike
you aren't giving the whole story.
you have many many more sources & contacts then we the average shooter have for acquiring the correct pellet.
i also do not sort for head size any more for my regular benchrest shooting
but i do check to see if the head size is in the correct range for my gun and some tins (die #'s) get marked bad & set aside right then
i also check the tail size and if too big another set aside
and if they pass those 2 tests then i inspect all the pellets for defects,
my eyesight is NOT good enuff to see the defect when i'm putting the pellet in the gun
that is my normal procedure except when i want to get serious
then i will check the head size of every pellet and i will weigh every pellet in the good tin, to throw out those strange wild ones and there is almost always a cpl
because in serious competition 1 or 2 points will make a big difference
you aren't giving the whole story.
you have many many more sources & contacts then we the average shooter have for acquiring the correct pellet.
i also do not sort for head size any more for my regular benchrest shooting
but i do check to see if the head size is in the correct range for my gun and some tins (die #'s) get marked bad & set aside right then
i also check the tail size and if too big another set aside
and if they pass those 2 tests then i inspect all the pellets for defects,
my eyesight is NOT good enuff to see the defect when i'm putting the pellet in the gun
that is my normal procedure except when i want to get serious
then i will check the head size of every pellet and i will weigh every pellet in the good tin, to throw out those strange wild ones and there is almost always a cpl
because in serious competition 1 or 2 points will make a big difference
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What sort of clarity do you hope to provide?
250s on the 25m card outdoors with a good unlimited class 22 is very doable these days. High 240s would be necessary to be competitive.
Attempting to manipulate pellets has been an entirely fruitless exercise for me. Modifying a good shooting pellet in hopes to make it better or more consistent was futile.
Mike
250s on the 25m card outdoors with a good unlimited class 22 is very doable these days. High 240s would be necessary to be competitive.
Attempting to manipulate pellets has been an entirely fruitless exercise for me. Modifying a good shooting pellet in hopes to make it better or more consistent was futile.
Mike
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@oledawg
I'd appreciate some data on the subject and look forward to your results. I have some data I collected a couple years ago kicking around that formed my opinion on the subject of sorting pellets for both weight and head size. If I can find the data, I'll share my opinion. If not, I'll let those with repeateable data do the talking.
I'd appreciate some data on the subject and look forward to your results. I have some data I collected a couple years ago kicking around that formed my opinion on the subject of sorting pellets for both weight and head size. If I can find the data, I'll share my opinion. If not, I'll let those with repeateable data do the talking.
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thomasair Clarity, Does pellet preening make any difference. If I shoot 60 from the can only preening for damage then shoot the same pellets preened with different head, skirt sizes weight and there is no difference in shot data then It will support your opinion that pellet preening makes no difference. At that point I will stop preening. On the other hand if there are improvements in data metrics then based upon what I am doing then I will continue to do it. I am using data improvement over accuracy improvements as I don’t have a Ransom rest for the test shooting so accuracy is only as good as I am.
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Hi Dick...I understand the needs of competition.
Having greater access to pellets does not change the fact that head sorting has been a waste of time. The idea that you can take mediocre pellets and improve them enough to compete with good pellets is folly.
As I have said many times....and backed up by many others....the culls of head sizing sorts produce the same long term results as the select pellets. That clearly means that head sorting is not the answer for my competition needs.
Your shooting mate Ron has given up on the air gauge...but yet he’s not lost any ground. How can that be explained? Shooting well and meticulously sorting does not prove that sorting was a key element...as many believe. Shooting well without sorting is a far more effective persuasion. Ron’s overall scores have not been affected whatsoever by his decision to abandon head sorting. In fact , he just shot a new record.
Mike
Having greater access to pellets does not change the fact that head sorting has been a waste of time. The idea that you can take mediocre pellets and improve them enough to compete with good pellets is folly.
As I have said many times....and backed up by many others....the culls of head sizing sorts produce the same long term results as the select pellets. That clearly means that head sorting is not the answer for my competition needs.
Your shooting mate Ron has given up on the air gauge...but yet he’s not lost any ground. How can that be explained? Shooting well and meticulously sorting does not prove that sorting was a key element...as many believe. Shooting well without sorting is a far more effective persuasion. Ron’s overall scores have not been affected whatsoever by his decision to abandon head sorting. In fact , he just shot a new record.
Mike
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Nobody uses a Ransom Rest for BR.
As I said earlier....fixing up mediocre pellets will not compete with good pellets.
If you cannot shoot 250s or very close to it with an unlimited 22 at 25m...you do not have good pellets, a good enough gun, or both.
Doctoring pellets to get mediocre scores is not useful to a precision shooter.
This thread is meant to point out that head sorting is not what gets you to the top of a precision game.
Mike
As I said earlier....fixing up mediocre pellets will not compete with good pellets.
If you cannot shoot 250s or very close to it with an unlimited 22 at 25m...you do not have good pellets, a good enough gun, or both.
Doctoring pellets to get mediocre scores is not useful to a precision shooter.
This thread is meant to point out that head sorting is not what gets you to the top of a precision game.
Mike
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Anyone can use a ransom rest to check the accuracy of a gun to take out issues caused by a shooter, no matter how good they are. I never said I was using cheap pellets and trying to turn them into something they could never be. I’m using JSB and H&N good quality pellets and trying to make them a little better.
I fully understand that head sorting does not make a champion shooter. I am NOT trying to be a champion shooter just the best I can be. I will do things I feel take variables out. Working on my shooting technique is extremely important for me to work on to become a better scorers swell. You obviously had to prove it to yourself and I guess I am stubborn and have to prove it to myself too.
I fully understand that head sorting does not make a champion shooter. I am NOT trying to be a champion shooter just the best I can be. I will do things I feel take variables out. Working on my shooting technique is extremely important for me to work on to become a better scorers swell. You obviously had to prove it to yourself and I guess I am stubborn and have to prove it to myself too.
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Mike, I have the utmost respect for you and your products.
I use that preface because of how off the wall the next question may seem.
I don't want you to think I'm trolling or trying to be nasty or anything.
Why not just shoot .177 pellets out of a .22?
If the size of the projectile is so irrelevant to accuracy, what's the difference?
-Donnie
I use that preface because of how off the wall the next question may seem.
I don't want you to think I'm trolling or trying to be nasty or anything.
Why not just shoot .177 pellets out of a .22?
If the size of the projectile is so irrelevant to accuracy, what's the difference?
-Donnie
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Obviously, the answer is because a given barrel will require a projectile of a certain size to be most accurate.
I do not believe for one second that determining that size and then sorting for that size is a fool's errand.
-Donnie
I do not believe for one second that determining that size and then sorting for that size is a fool's errand.
-Donnie
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I think I already explained the parameters well enough in the earlier posts on this thread. If you’re not supporting the head with the rifling....it’s not gonna fly. If you can’t get the tail concentric with the head....it’s not gonna go straight either.
If you want to debate about the ability to make mediocre pellets shoot better...I have no dog in the fight. I don’t care about mediocre pellets or how to improve mediocre performance to a higher mediocre level. I care about accuracy at the highest level, and you cannot improve a good shooting tin of pellets by sorting them to .01 mm levels. If you ask Dan Brown...the guy that pioneered the use of an air gauge for head sorting he will tell you the same thing. If you head size sort great pellets you still find all the head size variability that the turds have. How can that be?
I have many different pellets that I would use in a competition of any level. I have 4.46 diameter head pellets that are amazing, and I have 4.53-4.54 that are equally amazing out of the same barrel. How can that be if there is a magic size for every barrel? The 4.46 still ride the rifling...that’s a must. That’s a huge range. If I sort through either of these pellets by head size and remove any oddballs and place them in a pile...I can shoot the pile when I get enough of them and they shoot the same average scores as the majority.
Mike
If you want to debate about the ability to make mediocre pellets shoot better...I have no dog in the fight. I don’t care about mediocre pellets or how to improve mediocre performance to a higher mediocre level. I care about accuracy at the highest level, and you cannot improve a good shooting tin of pellets by sorting them to .01 mm levels. If you ask Dan Brown...the guy that pioneered the use of an air gauge for head sorting he will tell you the same thing. If you head size sort great pellets you still find all the head size variability that the turds have. How can that be?
I have many different pellets that I would use in a competition of any level. I have 4.46 diameter head pellets that are amazing, and I have 4.53-4.54 that are equally amazing out of the same barrel. How can that be if there is a magic size for every barrel? The 4.46 still ride the rifling...that’s a must. That’s a huge range. If I sort through either of these pellets by head size and remove any oddballs and place them in a pile...I can shoot the pile when I get enough of them and they shoot the same average scores as the majority.
Mike
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Using an unsorted tin of JSB Monster Redesigns, my gun will shoot a 250 at 25m. That tells me that if a shot misses it is because the weather conditions changed and I did not correctly adjust, not because of small random differences in pellet head size, skirt size, or weight.
My gun won't shoot a perfect 250 with 25X's at 25m though. I can see the temptation to think that the tiny differences in the pellet are to blame. I can't find my data
, but the results satisfied me that sorting for head size, skirts, weight, and lube/no lube didn't get me any closer to that the perfect 250 with 25 X's I'd like to shoot.
My gun won't shoot a perfect 250 with 25X's at 25m though. I can see the temptation to think that the tiny differences in the pellet are to blame. I can't find my data
, but the results satisfied me that sorting for head size, skirts, weight, and lube/no lube didn't get me any closer to that the perfect 250 with 25 X's I'd like to shoot. Upvote 0
I have to agree with ThomasAir. I have done everything I know of to determine why one tin shoot poorly and another can deliver a 250 ( in a wind tunnel). Head sizing/ air gauging have proved fruitless. Many times I have thought I have found some correlation only to be disproved by broadening the sample size. One of the biggest pitfalls is that you have to take a large sample. If I can shoot a 747- 38x+ I know I have an exceptional tin. For compitition I will use a pellet sorter to visually inspect ... and that’s all. I doubt anyone on this thread puts as many pellets down range as thomasair.
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What about weight differences and how that affects ES at long range, weight sorting, is that a waste of time too?? I haven't had a rifle accurate enough to really tell the difference.
I'm pretty sure Bluebaby shot that 240 at 100Y right out of the tin.
I'm pretty sure Bluebaby shot that 240 at 100Y right out of the tin.
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