Perhaps Centercut could explain more about the nebulous answer he was given to his query about slugs and their legality in aafta?
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Slugs for AAFTA matches?
- Thread starter Centercut
- Start date
I think you are confused. I asked a question a year or more ago, like you pointed out. And it was not about slugs. You were involved in the discussion and you know it wasn't about slugs but concerned prone position, so maybe you forgot about that.?
Here is my question I just now sent to the AAFTA BOG.
_________________________
[email protected]
Sirs,
Big discussion on the forums regarding projectiles for AAFTA events. From the AAFTA rulebook, it appears that ANY DESIGN of pellet is what the rules state.
*Ammunition*
*Any design of pellet that is completely made of lead, lead alloy, zinc, zinc alloy, or similar all-metal material may be used.*
I’ve asked experienced shooters and MDs and some think slugs are allowed, some don’t. I asked Jim C at the most recent FT Nationals and he said he would have allowed slugs if anyone had wanted to shoot them. Mike N of Thomas Air said he feels they are legal per AAFTA rules. And then other MDs, like for the upcoming GP in Texas, said they most certainly are not legal and he would not allow them unless the wording in the AAFTA rules was changed.
So please, could the AAFTA BOG clear this up so we can all stop our bickering about it?
Thanks for the attention in this matter.
r/
Mike
Here is my question I just now sent to the AAFTA BOG.
_________________________
[email protected]
Sirs,
Big discussion on the forums regarding projectiles for AAFTA events. From the AAFTA rulebook, it appears that ANY DESIGN of pellet is what the rules state.
*Ammunition*
*Any design of pellet that is completely made of lead, lead alloy, zinc, zinc alloy, or similar all-metal material may be used.*
I’ve asked experienced shooters and MDs and some think slugs are allowed, some don’t. I asked Jim C at the most recent FT Nationals and he said he would have allowed slugs if anyone had wanted to shoot them. Mike N of Thomas Air said he feels they are legal per AAFTA rules. And then other MDs, like for the upcoming GP in Texas, said they most certainly are not legal and he would not allow them unless the wording in the AAFTA rules was changed.
So please, could the AAFTA BOG clear this up so we can all stop our bickering about it?
Thanks for the attention in this matter.
r/
Mike
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Frank,
Your heart is in the right place. The thing is, there's no obligation for anyone to scan social media.
It's like skywriting. It's a big message with a potential huge audience, but unless you're outside looking up, you won't see it.
K
Your heart is in the right place. The thing is, there's no obligation for anyone to scan social media.
It's like skywriting. It's a big message with a potential huge audience, but unless you're outside looking up, you won't see it.
K
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I knew what your post a year ago was about….but Cole didn’t. It was easier t have you explain it.
What was your question to them about the prone position…and what was their response to that?
Mike
What was your question to them about the prone position…and what was their response to that?
Mike
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My recommendation is that you consider slugs illegal and just stick with pellets for AAFTA matches….as the rules which don’t say outright that they are illegal will surely be amended eventually.
Mike
Mike
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Centercut,
You are misquoting me on allowing pellets, and I did not speak to you about that topic. I was asked by someone else about using slugs at my Republic of Texas GP match. I used my Match Director authority arising from the AAFTA rules to respond with "No, slugs are not allowed in this GP" and based this on my interpretation of the rules you stated and in context of my gun club.
Thank you for submitting an email on slug usage to the BOG for our consideration. Mike N. is correct when he says the way to update FT rules is via the voting FT club member submittals of their desires.
Jeff Cloud
ASC Match Director and BOG Member
You are misquoting me on allowing pellets, and I did not speak to you about that topic. I was asked by someone else about using slugs at my Republic of Texas GP match. I used my Match Director authority arising from the AAFTA rules to respond with "No, slugs are not allowed in this GP" and based this on my interpretation of the rules you stated and in context of my gun club.
Thank you for submitting an email on slug usage to the BOG for our consideration. Mike N. is correct when he says the way to update FT rules is via the voting FT club member submittals of their desires.
Jeff Cloud
ASC Match Director and BOG Member
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"My recommendation is that you consider slugs illegal and just stick with pellets for AAFTA matches….as the rules which don’t say outright that they are illegal will surely be amended eventually."
As a long-time Match Director, I whole-heartedly agree. If for no other reason than slugs would be harder on the targets, and likely complicate target tuning, function and reliability; all of which already complicate MDs' lives quite enough already.
Diabolo pellets excelling for (relatively) short-range shooting, they are a... correction, THE perfect, silver-slipper fit for regular field target competition.
Also having been involved in more FT rules-making and rules evolution than I would have liked, which often becomes quite contentious, no need to open what would be(come) a HUGE can of worms and slugs. (See what I did there?) ;-)
As a long-time Match Director, I whole-heartedly agree. If for no other reason than slugs would be harder on the targets, and likely complicate target tuning, function and reliability; all of which already complicate MDs' lives quite enough already.
Diabolo pellets excelling for (relatively) short-range shooting, they are a... correction, THE perfect, silver-slipper fit for regular field target competition.
Also having been involved in more FT rules-making and rules evolution than I would have liked, which often becomes quite contentious, no need to open what would be(come) a HUGE can of worms and slugs. (See what I did there?) ;-)
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FYI, the AAFTA BOG received a request for clarification of slug legality and has scheduled a phone conference for Thursday, OCT 21 to discuss it and any other rule change/clarifications that have been submitted.
Greg Sauve, AAFTA BOG member
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Awesome. Here's the response to my request for clarification.
______________________________
Mike,
Thanks for the email.
We are going to be discussing it this week with the intention to clarify the rules for the 2022 season now that the 2021 season has concluded.
Thanks
Tyler Patner
Chairman, AAFTA BOG
______________________________
Mike,
Thanks for the email.
We are going to be discussing it this week with the intention to clarify the rules for the 2022 season now that the 2021 season has concluded.
Thanks
Tyler Patner
Chairman, AAFTA BOG
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I don't see how a match director can honestly argue that "slugs" (slug shaped pellets) are illegal for AAFTA FT. They may not like them personally or want them in matches for whatever reason, but it's not because they are illegal. Target damage is a non-issue for 20fpe lead projectiles (the hardness of the lead is a bigger concern than the shape of the pellet). Some might just feel threatened by new or different approaches. I personally don't think that the current crop of slug shaped pellets is competitive with diabolo shaped pellets at under 20fpe and 55 yards.
So according to the AAFTA rules and a reasonable understanding of the English language, the answer should be yes, slug shaped pellets are legal for AAFTA matches.
So according to the AAFTA rules and a reasonable understanding of the English language, the answer should be yes, slug shaped pellets are legal for AAFTA matches.
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I like it!
Really great to see the BOG actively engaged in a conversation that is truly regarding the reason for the very existence of a governing board.
HUGE step in the right direction.
Really great to see the BOG actively engaged in a conversation that is truly regarding the reason for the very existence of a governing board.
HUGE step in the right direction.
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Nation,
I've been using my slugs out of my 1720T pistol for Field Target for the last 2 years, with no complaints or issues. As someone mentioned above, I've been actively tinkering with a slug for Field Target use, and I've come close to achieving the accuracy I want, but it's just short.
For those who think a slug at sub 20 ft.lbs, or even 12ftlb, which is my world, will damage targets, or travel further than a "regular " pellet, I can safely say that they won't. The alloy of my slugs, are way softer than any projectile out there. Almost all pellets have alloys in them that make them harder.....I use almost pure lead at 99.98%.
I have never been denied the use of slugs in a match, when I've inquired upon their legality of use. I have not shot them in a match out of my rifle as of now.....
If the AAFTA BOG is going to discuss this, they should make a recommendation to the AAFTA member clubs, after discussing the topic. A reason upholding their decision, regardless of if it's for, or against should be made. It should go out to the member clubs for a vote, majority wins. That would be the fair way of going forward with this topic.
That being said, as a match director myself, I would have no issues of anyone who wants to use slugs at one of my matches, and anywhere else for that matter. As the rules are read, it is a legal projectile.
Just my view
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
Fieldtargettech.com
I've been using my slugs out of my 1720T pistol for Field Target for the last 2 years, with no complaints or issues. As someone mentioned above, I've been actively tinkering with a slug for Field Target use, and I've come close to achieving the accuracy I want, but it's just short.
For those who think a slug at sub 20 ft.lbs, or even 12ftlb, which is my world, will damage targets, or travel further than a "regular " pellet, I can safely say that they won't. The alloy of my slugs, are way softer than any projectile out there. Almost all pellets have alloys in them that make them harder.....I use almost pure lead at 99.98%.
I have never been denied the use of slugs in a match, when I've inquired upon their legality of use. I have not shot them in a match out of my rifle as of now.....
If the AAFTA BOG is going to discuss this, they should make a recommendation to the AAFTA member clubs, after discussing the topic. A reason upholding their decision, regardless of if it's for, or against should be made. It should go out to the member clubs for a vote, majority wins. That would be the fair way of going forward with this topic.
That being said, as a match director myself, I would have no issues of anyone who wants to use slugs at one of my matches, and anywhere else for that matter. As the rules are read, it is a legal projectile.
Just my view
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
Fieldtargettech.com
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This thread was educational on how the BOG evaluates requests for changes or clarifications. I had assumed that they looked for input that came from the member clubs as a whole, not from individual members within the clubs. That being said, I have thought recently about hunter field target and the frustrations I often have in ranging past 40 yards. Being relatively new to the game, I probably lack the corporate knowledge to mount a worthy argument to promote upping the scope power allowance in hunter, but it is good to know the BOG will accept input from individuals. Centercut, apologies for pulling this thread slightly off topic.
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As the match director for the SVFTC here in California, Be it for reasons of ballistic "Fairness" across ALL competitors i feel the ballistic advantage of slugs over a pellet while small at our 55 and under ranges, it is still present never the less. If a VOTE were to be cast on if or not Slugs could be used in our FT game ... personally feel they should NOT.
Slugs are here to stay and that I have no doubt, but lets try and keep the FT game we play on a foundation using the projectiles ( Diablo pellets ) it has sense day one the game began.
JMO.
As Aimright above states : That being said, I have thought recently about hunter field target and the frustrations I often have in ranging past 40 yards.
Being one who has shot HFT at 12x and been successful at the National level, then shooting 16x this last 4 years ..... RANGING past 40 yards while itself got better 12 to16x, the SKILL SET of the shooter is what comes into play. That of bracketing into the KZ hole the most reasonable fudge factor of further distances that fit within it. Ranging errors out far are no different than in close .... They will generally come in Low. So quit aiming into the center of KZ and think about where ranging errors In / Out would land on said target and try and fit those into the KZ too. Practice and applying this technique I guarantee will up your game.
Scott S
Slugs are here to stay and that I have no doubt, but lets try and keep the FT game we play on a foundation using the projectiles ( Diablo pellets ) it has sense day one the game began.
JMO.
As Aimright above states : That being said, I have thought recently about hunter field target and the frustrations I often have in ranging past 40 yards.
Being one who has shot HFT at 12x and been successful at the National level, then shooting 16x this last 4 years ..... RANGING past 40 yards while itself got better 12 to16x, the SKILL SET of the shooter is what comes into play. That of bracketing into the KZ hole the most reasonable fudge factor of further distances that fit within it. Ranging errors out far are no different than in close .... They will generally come in Low. So quit aiming into the center of KZ and think about where ranging errors In / Out would land on said target and try and fit those into the KZ too. Practice and applying this technique I guarantee will up your game.
Scott S
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Hey Tom
I understand that this procedure is your view, as noted by your use of the word "should". AFAIK there is no formal written procedure for rule changes like there is for Bylaw amendments. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
K
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Nation,
If we want to have a definitive answer for this debate, the BOG should just do this...........
Adapt all WFTF rules the way they are written by WFTF. If they allow it, or not allow it, so be it. Let the current WFTF rules speak for itself. The BOG has enough to worry about, never mind something that comes along like this, seemingly on a regular basis. Let WFTF answer that question. If WFTF rules allow it, we, as an organization should allow it as well.
Being on the subject of rules, WFTF has banned the use of slings in the freestyle position. It's allowed in standing and kneeling, but no longer in the free position. Being one of the few, if not only US competitor that uses one, I will no longer use one come the next FT season. AAFTA should ammend this rule, to reflect upon the new change in the coming year.
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
Fieldtargettech.com
If we want to have a definitive answer for this debate, the BOG should just do this...........
Adapt all WFTF rules the way they are written by WFTF. If they allow it, or not allow it, so be it. Let the current WFTF rules speak for itself. The BOG has enough to worry about, never mind something that comes along like this, seemingly on a regular basis. Let WFTF answer that question. If WFTF rules allow it, we, as an organization should allow it as well.
Being on the subject of rules, WFTF has banned the use of slings in the freestyle position. It's allowed in standing and kneeling, but no longer in the free position. Being one of the few, if not only US competitor that uses one, I will no longer use one come the next FT season. AAFTA should ammend this rule, to reflect upon the new change in the coming year.
Tom Holland
Field Target Tech
Fieldtargettech.com
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Well after catching up on this it seems to me that the same old songs are being sung by the membership of this group as in many other groups. Some that are happy with how they are doing and don’t want to learn any new tricks are against slugs at all cost and those with inquisitive minds and like to push boundary’s are for. I personally shot all year with my maverick @ 19.5 fpe and have neither heard nor seen any more damage or distance traveled from my nsa 12.5 gr slugs. I have shot 2 matches this year with pellets and scores were nearly the same Wish that was different but im still looking to try to get slugs to shoot constantly as i know they can. Il abide by what ever the new rules say but will constantly be looking for an edge isn’t that what competition is all about?
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