Could someone please explain the difference between FFP (first focal plane) and SFP (second focal plane) scopes. What is the advantage of one over the other? Thanks
Scopes, FFP vs. SFP
- Thread starter Mr.Gadgets
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With a ffp the reticle does the same thing as what you are aiming at when changing magnification, gets bigger/smaller. It is always true so holdover is the same. Because of this the reticle tends to be really thick att high magnification and all but unusable at lowest magnification because you can barely see the holdovers. Ffp is imho for hunting only and not at all suitible for target shooting.
Sfp the reticle is the same size no matter the magnification wich allows for a nice fine reticle very much suitable for target shooting. The reticle is calibrated or true at a certian magnification and holdover values change with magnification. Say you have a 10-40 scope true at 20x if you have a 4 mildot holdover at 20x that is a 8 mildot holdover at 40x because you doubled magnification aka double holdover. Here is where I love sfp scopes. If you have a scope with 5 mildots, but your holdover for that shot is 10 mildots. Simply half the magnification to half the holdover, in this example that is 10x and now you have a 5 mildot holdover... (and a nice fine reticle suitable for target shooting)
Sfp the reticle is the same size no matter the magnification wich allows for a nice fine reticle very much suitable for target shooting. The reticle is calibrated or true at a certian magnification and holdover values change with magnification. Say you have a 10-40 scope true at 20x if you have a 4 mildot holdover at 20x that is a 8 mildot holdover at 40x because you doubled magnification aka double holdover. Here is where I love sfp scopes. If you have a scope with 5 mildots, but your holdover for that shot is 10 mildots. Simply half the magnification to half the holdover, in this example that is 10x and now you have a 5 mildot holdover... (and a nice fine reticle suitable for target shooting)
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I'm sure there are others that can explain this much better than I can, but here is how I understand it.
When you're dealing with a first focal plane scope, the size of the reticle changes with the magnification. This has to do with how the lenses are installed. So the more magnification you have, the smaller the reticle becomes. These scopes tend to be much more expensive than a SFP scope and are consider more accurate. A major benefit of these scopes is that your point of impact should never change regardless of what magnification you go to. On the downside, that also means that the reticle may be harder to see for some of us at higher magnifications than others.
Whereas, a second focal plane scope keeps the reticle the same size regardless of magnification. Again, this has to do with how the lenses are installed. So regardless of magnification, the reticle never changes in size. While SFP scopes are cheaper, the point of impact can change when the magnification level is changed. This commonly happens when you site-in at 3x and then go to shoot at 10x, but based on the target distance and how precise the shot should be, most shooters may never notice it. For instance, if your hunting a deer at 100 yards and your point of impact changes by 2 inches left and 3 inches up when you go to 10x, you'll probably not notice it as you'll still most likely hit the deer in the 8 inch lethal zone. However, if you're shooting a 100 yard match and have this happen, you'll immediately notice that you missed the bullseye you were aiming at.
Some of this is going to be target distance (the further the target, the more the shift of impact is going to affect the shot) but it can also be accounted for in the site-in process to a degree. If you site-in at a certain magnification, say 10x for HFT, and never change it you shouldn't see any difference between FFP and SFP. If you're shooting a SFP and site in around the middle range of magnification, you'll have less changes if you need to go down or up 1 or 2 magnifications than if you site-in at 3x or 10x and then crank it up or down.
When you're dealing with a first focal plane scope, the size of the reticle changes with the magnification. This has to do with how the lenses are installed. So the more magnification you have, the smaller the reticle becomes. These scopes tend to be much more expensive than a SFP scope and are consider more accurate. A major benefit of these scopes is that your point of impact should never change regardless of what magnification you go to. On the downside, that also means that the reticle may be harder to see for some of us at higher magnifications than others.
Whereas, a second focal plane scope keeps the reticle the same size regardless of magnification. Again, this has to do with how the lenses are installed. So regardless of magnification, the reticle never changes in size. While SFP scopes are cheaper, the point of impact can change when the magnification level is changed. This commonly happens when you site-in at 3x and then go to shoot at 10x, but based on the target distance and how precise the shot should be, most shooters may never notice it. For instance, if your hunting a deer at 100 yards and your point of impact changes by 2 inches left and 3 inches up when you go to 10x, you'll probably not notice it as you'll still most likely hit the deer in the 8 inch lethal zone. However, if you're shooting a 100 yard match and have this happen, you'll immediately notice that you missed the bullseye you were aiming at.
Some of this is going to be target distance (the further the target, the more the shift of impact is going to affect the shot) but it can also be accounted for in the site-in process to a degree. If you site-in at a certain magnification, say 10x for HFT, and never change it you shouldn't see any difference between FFP and SFP. If you're shooting a SFP and site in around the middle range of magnification, you'll have less changes if you need to go down or up 1 or 2 magnifications than if you site-in at 3x or 10x and then crank it up or down.
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POI shift with magnification does not happen on good scopes, cannot speak for chineese scopes however..
It does not have to do with lenses, it is where the reticle is, in the first (front) focal plane or in the second focal plane.
With higher mag the reticle becomes bigger not smaller
It does not have to do with lenses, it is where the reticle is, in the first (front) focal plane or in the second focal plane.
With higher mag the reticle becomes bigger not smaller
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Here is a video by Vortex explaining the basic differences.
http://www.vortexoptics.com/video/first_vs_second_focal_plane
http://www.vortexoptics.com/video/first_vs_second_focal_plane
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If anyone chooses a rifle scope based on the EXTREMES of its magnification range (ie: Minimum to Maximum) they are quite frankly stupid, regardless of which focal plane the reticle is placed. Rather, one should select a variable mag scope for its middle ranges, scopes always used to be Minimum X3 (to max) but many are now Minimum X5 which may or may not be a good thing!
This is especially true of FFP scopes (I have a few) the middle ranges of the scopes' mag should cover your desired requirments (whatever they are) - 3 of mine are rated '4-14' in mag range, I actually commonly use approx '5-12' of that range. FFP scopes are WIDELY used by long range target shooters (mostly PB).
As a point of interest there seems to be some confusion on this thread between Point of Impact and Point of Aim - POI is the pellet (or bullet) landing whilst POA is the centre point of the reticle (aim). It is also forgotten that most people increase the mag of their scopes to counteract increasing the range of the target; the projectile/pellet will drop further with increased range, of course, and any wind factor will also increase its effect at greater ranges.
Here is a simple explanation (with an annoying advert you have to pretend to answer):-
What you need to know about focal planes[/QUOTE]http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/shooting/instruction/need-know-focal-planes-40394/embed
This is especially true of FFP scopes (I have a few) the middle ranges of the scopes' mag should cover your desired requirments (whatever they are) - 3 of mine are rated '4-14' in mag range, I actually commonly use approx '5-12' of that range. FFP scopes are WIDELY used by long range target shooters (mostly PB).
As a point of interest there seems to be some confusion on this thread between Point of Impact and Point of Aim - POI is the pellet (or bullet) landing whilst POA is the centre point of the reticle (aim). It is also forgotten that most people increase the mag of their scopes to counteract increasing the range of the target; the projectile/pellet will drop further with increased range, of course, and any wind factor will also increase its effect at greater ranges.
Here is a simple explanation (with an annoying advert you have to pretend to answer):-
What you need to know about focal planes[/QUOTE]
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" So the more magnification you have, the smaller the reticle becomes."
This was definitely a typo on my part as it should have read "the less magnification you have, the smaller the reticle becomes." Here is a link to an Air Heads episode where this is discussed and shown
Also, I can see where there can be confusion with understanding POI and POA with how I have some of this phrased. I think BRS did a great job clarifying what was meant and not what was typed.
This was definitely a typo on my part as it should have read "the less magnification you have, the smaller the reticle becomes." Here is a link to an Air Heads episode where this is discussed and shown
Also, I can see where there can be confusion with understanding POI and POA with how I have some of this phrased. I think BRS did a great job clarifying what was meant and not what was typed.
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I wasn't attempting to 'correct' your post at all WCT - your meaning shone through quite clearly and is the view widely accepted amongst most who shoot at varying ranges at a variety of 'targets'. Airgun ranges (even in the US) are quite limited and both HFT & FT target courses are rather artificial (IMO).
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I prefer SFP for long range, once again, half the magnification (from where it is true, if true at 20x that is 10x) and you half the holdover value (as example from 10 to 5 mildots) no need to touch the turret at all.
With my setup I can reach out to almost 200 yards with my scope zeroed at 30 yards without ever touching the turret, all I need to do is lower the magnification...
With my setup I can reach out to almost 200 yards with my scope zeroed at 30 yards without ever touching the turret, all I need to do is lower the magnification...
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Id say the more accurate way of describing ffp scopes is zooming into the reticle. In this case ffp reticles need to be fine as hell. I made a call to hawke asking why they didnt make their top of the line scopes ffp and they said that ffp manufacturing cost is much higher than sfp.
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And they are supposed to be heavier scopes as well, as if Hawke wasn't heavy enough already...
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"And they are supposed to be heavier scopes as well" (RE: FFP scopes)
Would you care to let us all in on your thinking here, Tony ?
The exact placement of the reticle element/lens within the scope tube doesn't add or subtract any weight at all, to my thinking.
Would you care to let us all in on your thinking here, Tony ?
The exact placement of the reticle element/lens within the scope tube doesn't add or subtract any weight at all, to my thinking.
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I prefer FFP optics for hunting and target shooting. There has been a some informative information posted on this subject, some that is worthless. IF AT ALL possible, look through a few optics and decide for yourself.
Keyboard commandos will confuse the information seeking shooters with their lack of knowledge on the subject.
Keyboard commandos will confuse the information seeking shooters with their lack of knowledge on the subject.
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Hotbrass, Would you prefer a FFP scope for hunting at short distances through branches ..... such as when after squirrels, which are often hard to track unless at low magnification, or birds.
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I use a Vortex Viper 2.5 x 10 x 44
If you are shooting with the scope set at 10x, all MOA markings on the reticle are correctly displayed as 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 MOA. • If you are shooting with the scope set at 5x, the actual drop values will be 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 MOA. • If you are shooting with the scope set at 2.5x, the actual drop values will be 40, 80, 120, 160, and 200 MOA.
If you are shooting with the scope set at 10x, all MOA markings on the reticle are correctly displayed as 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 MOA. • If you are shooting with the scope set at 5x, the actual drop values will be 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 MOA. • If you are shooting with the scope set at 2.5x, the actual drop values will be 40, 80, 120, 160, and 200 MOA.
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Yes, that's correct. The difference between FFP and SFP, is that in FFP scopes reticle subtension remains the same as magnification changes. In SFP scopes, reticle subtension changes by the inverse relative to magnification changes, as GQ describes above.
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