[updated] Scope guru's help shed some light... long Tactical -vs- short LPVO

Jump to latest Follow Reply
A

Airgun-hobbyist

Member
Mar 19, 2019
2,279
1,109
Free, United States
Help to educate the masses all of you scope guru's out there... 

Has anyone tested, at dusk or beyond, the real world differences between a long tactical scope with a large ocular bell and objective lense (30mm tube and 50mm objective) versus a short tactical LPVO (30mm tube and 24mm objective), with both scopes being set at the same power level (8 power)?

What say you...



UPDATE:

IMG_20210106_140739196_BURST0072.1609977500.jpg


IMG_20210106_1654384932.1609977521.jpg


I got the Nightforce NX8 1-8×24 today. So as to "shed some light"... 

Using two of the same scopes but with different objective lenses, a Nightforce NX8 4-32×50 and a Nightforce NX8 1-8×24, set on the same power levels, I have came to the determination tonight that the larger objective lense will give you a little more light gathering clarity. BUT, it only gives you a very small amount of it. It was literally less than a few minutes of light left at dark looking out at 200+ yards where the clarity was better.

The new LPVO scopes with 1-10×34mm lenses and tubes would probably equal the light gathering ability of 50mm objective scopes with 30mm tubes. So unless living in a state (or country) where you can hunt after dark, the realized benefits during the day are weight loss and quick game acquisition with the lower power. I'd think the LPVO scopes would probably be a good pesting scope for removing birds and rats from farms too, so long as you are not wanting high magnification levels for filming.
 
I'm interested to hear opinions about this also. But I do find a major apples to oranges problem in this question in that every "tactical" (and otherwise) scope in the configuration you describe has a 100 yd set parallax (a rare few at 75). This will eliminate this type of scope's desirability for most airgunners.
Click to expand...

If parallax is fixed you would have to be precise with eye centering to keep on target from what I have experienced. But shouldn't it "see" close up and focused, even at close yardages? The review videos on the LPVO scopes I have been watching lately don't mention any concerns with focus there (doing their close-range tactical range work). Does a fixed parallax scope not focus up close?
 
Upvote 0
Fixed power scopes are usually parallax free at 100 yards although some of the .22 scopes are at 50 yards. So they don't do that well up close sometimes blurring the image. The scope with the larger objective lens will usually win on the light gathering front. Although lens coatings and tube diameter can make a difference between which scope, with near the same size objective, is the best.

After having an adjustable objective scope I would not consider anything else unless it was on a centerfire hunting rig.

Most of us in the know airguners want adjustable objectives that focus down to ten yards although a few long rangers use the 35 yard focus scopes.
 
Upvote 0
I guess my best example to answer is my Nikon Rimfire BDC (LOVE that reticle) fixed at 50 yds. I had it on my AA S410. At 25 yds I I can see the point of aim shift about a quarter inch (a guess) when moving my head around. With a good cheek weld I haven't actually experienced that much of a variance on shots but I can "see" it's possible. It is enough of a concern for me to eliminate that scope for airgun use. That IS a great scope for a 30-30 deer rifle in PA woods.
 
Upvote 0
Larger objective in theory let's in more light but you also have to take in account for the lenses ability to let light in (light transmission) and how well in real world it let's light in.

Ive had the razor gen 1 1-6x that has a HUGE ocular lens and the eye box is also huge. Even at 6x I used it with both eyes open and found it very quick to line up the centerline of the scope. I ended up selling it because the huge ocular lens made it on thr heavy side. I use a kahles 1-6x which has a huge eye box but a much smaller ocular lens so it's much lighter. Both have 24mm objectives as most LPVO's do. 

The razor was easier to get behind in terms of eye box, but I preferred the smaller kahles for the weight as it was still very easy to get behind.

That being said, tube size and objective lens size in theory let's in more light but at dusk I doubt you'll notice much difference in application. The quality of the lenses is probably just as important (light transmission) and how well the manufacturer utilizes the lenses, but yeah larger objective lenses should let in more light but honestly both my vortex and kahles at low light let in plenty of light. I think you're over thinking to and I'd go with quality glass and not worry so much about the tube size and objective size. If I'm using it on something light I'd go with the smaller lenses but if you're that worried about light transmission just buy higher quality scopes, bigger objective lenses or just go with IR scopes if you're shooting with much less light. 
 
Upvote 0
Yes. The best comparison that I can personally attest to would be my 34mm 1-8 ATACR & 30mm 1-8 NX8. The ATACR is preferable at dusk / night, and the NX8 doesn't do all that great with light transmission above ~3-4x.

So I started testing one of my PVS-14's behind my glass at night, and I found that the NX8 is awesome with the PVS14, with a little modified LUNA ELIR-3 IR laser on a Surefire tape switch. The sight picture is absolutely incredible throughout the entire mag range! It doesn't work all that great with the ATACR, because the entire eyepiece extends and retracts turned up or down (which screws up the focus / orientation with the PVS-14's objective lens.

I would definitely go with a larger tube if you aren't planning to run NV. If you are planning to run NV with your glass, then your best bet would be forward mounted thermal lol - otherwise, you have to consider the rear-mounted issues that occur with i2-based NV.
 
Upvote 0
I guess my best example to answer is my Nikon Rimfire BDC (LOVE that reticle) fixed at 50 yds. I had it on my AA S410. At 25 yds I I can see the point of aim shift about a quarter inch (a guess) when moving my head around. With a good cheek weld I haven't actually experienced that much of a variance on shots but I can "see" it's possible. It is enough of a concern for me to eliminate that scope for airgun use. That IS a great scope for a 30-30 deer rifle in PA woods.
Click to expand...

Agree with what you say, without a consistent cheek weld, you will always have parallax error no matter how you set the parallax at the correct distance. Consistent cheek weld is going to be crucial for parallax error. I think parallax adjustments are best for focusing the target and consistent cheek weld will be MUCH better for parallax error than any "correct" parallax adjustment. With proper parallax adjustment the error will probably be smaller but u always find parallax adjustment better for focusing on targets. 
 
Upvote 0
Yes. The best comparison that I can personally attest to would be my 34mm 1-8 ATACR & 30mm 1-8 NX8. The ATACR is preferable at dusk / night, and the NX8 doesn't do all that great with light transmission above ~3-4x.

So I started testing one of my PVS-14's behind my glass at night, and I found that the NX8 is awesome with the PVS14, with a little modified LUNA ELIR-3 IR laser on a Surefire tape switch. The sight picture is absolutely incredible throughout the entire mag range! It doesn't work all that great with the ATACR, because the entire eyepiece extends and retracts turned up or down (which screws up the focus / orientation with the PVS-14's objective lens.

I would definitely go with a larger tube if you aren't planning to run NV. If you are planning to run NV with your glass, then your best bet would be forward mounted thermal lol - otherwise, you have to consider the rear-mounted issues that occur with i2-based NV.
Click to expand...

I was hoping that you would be responding. You actually got me interested in switching to the smaller LPVO because I saw that you switch them up all the time. I have the Nightforce NX8 4-32×50 on the Slayer and because I won't be hunting/shooting over 300 yards regularly, the Nightforce NX8 1-8×24 having lighter weight up front had me wondering about light gathering. Of all the LPVO's the NX8 had the most to offer and best reticle.

Larger objective in theory let's in more light but you also have to take in account for the lenses ability to let light in (light transmission) and how well in real world it let's light in.

Ive had the razor gen 1 1-6x that has a HUGE ocular lens and the eye box is also huge. Even at 6x I used it with both eyes open and found it very quick to line up the centerline of the scope. I ended up selling it because the huge ocular lens made it on thr heavy side. I use a kahles 1-6x which has a huge eye box but a much smaller ocular lens so it's much lighter. Both have 24mm objectives as most LPVO's do. 

The razor was easier to get behind in terms of eye box, but I preferred the smaller kahles for the weight as it was still very easy to get behind.

That being said, tube size and objective lens size in theory let's in more light but at dusk I doubt you'll notice much difference in application. The quality of the lenses is probably just as important (light transmission) and how well the manufacturer utilizes the lenses, but yeah larger objective lenses should let in more light but honestly both my vortex and kahles at low light let in plenty of light. I think you're over thinking to and I'd go with quality glass and not worry so much about the tube size and objective size. If I'm using it on something light I'd go with the smaller lenses but if you're that worried about light transmission just buy higher quality scopes, bigger objective lenses or just go with IR scopes if you're shooting with much less light.
Click to expand...

I have always read that the larger objective lense would gather more light, and was wondering if it was just a common re-told theme, versus a wive's tale. What I did not know was whether the light gathering would still be the same given the same tube size, all other things being equal.



I guess I will see if at lower power the fixed parallax is going to be an issue shooting at 10 yards. Most of my range shooting is between 50 and 200+ yards, and indoors at 10 yards. The 10 yard distance that I shoot at up close at will give me some experience keeping my eye centered at the very least. 
 
Upvote 0
If parallax is fixed you would have to be precise with eye centering to keep on target from what I have experienced. But shouldn't it "see" close up and focused, even at close yardages? The review videos on the LPVO scopes I have been watching lately don't mention any concerns with focus there (doing their close-range tactical range work). Does a fixed power scope not focus up close?
Click to expand...

Did you mean fixed parallax?

I've heard the 24mm objective LPVOs have less parallax error than scopes with larger objective lenses. This was mentioned most recently in one of the Alpha 6 threads where their LPVO was mentioned.
 
Upvote 0
If parallax is fixed you would have to be precise with eye centering to keep on target from what I have experienced. But shouldn't it "see" close up and focused, even at close yardages? The review videos on the LPVO scopes I have been watching lately don't mention any concerns with focus there (doing their close-range tactical range work). Does a fixed power scope not focus up close?
Click to expand...

Did you mean fixed parallax?

I've heard the 24mm objective LPVOs have less parallax error than scopes with larger objective lenses. This was mentioned most recently in one of the Alpha 6 threads where their LPVO was mentioned.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did mean parallax not power and fixed the "error" in that post. ;-)

It is good to hear that smaller objective lense scopes have less error, and it makes sense too. I did just find a formula for determining what amount of parallax error you could have at what range, and it was based in part on the size of the objective lense.
 
Upvote 0
If parallax is fixed you would have to be precise with eye centering to keep on target from what I have experienced. But shouldn't it "see" close up and focused, even at close yardages? The review videos on the LPVO scopes I have been watching lately don't mention any concerns with focus there (doing their close-range tactical range work). Does a fixed power scope not focus up close?
Click to expand...

Did you mean fixed parallax?

I've heard the 24mm objective LPVOs have less parallax error than scopes with larger objective lenses. This was mentioned most recently in one of the Alpha 6 threads where their LPVO was mentioned.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did mean parallax not power and fixed the "error" in that post. ;-)

It is good to hear that smaller objective lense scopes have less error, and it makes sense too. I did just find a formula for determining what amount of parallax error you could have at what range, and it was based in part on the size of the objective lense.
Click to expand...

Can you post a link to that formula?

So you're getting the NF NX8?

I'm also looking for a 1-8x24 with a more typical holdover reticle.

I can afford NF prices but I'm not sure I can really justify it.

I found the Atibal 1-10 (in both SFP and FFP) but they are x30 scopes so in theory more parallax/focus issues if they're anything like my 6x30 Dedal.

Like you I shoot at close range in the basement but I also have quick and close shots to take on backyard rabbits. Makes sense for my basement rifle to be my rabbit rifle. Don't know how reliable I can be with consistent cheek weld when I have to take that quick shot at a rabbit.
 
Upvote 0
If parallax is fixed you would have to be precise with eye centering to keep on target from what I have experienced. But shouldn't it "see" close up and focused, even at close yardages? The review videos on the LPVO scopes I have been watching lately don't mention any concerns with focus there (doing their close-range tactical range work). Does a fixed power scope not focus up close?
Click to expand...

Did you mean fixed parallax?

I've heard the 24mm objective LPVOs have less parallax error than scopes with larger objective lenses. This was mentioned most recently in one of the Alpha 6 threads where their LPVO was mentioned.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did mean parallax not power and fixed the "error" in that post. ;-)

It is good to hear that smaller objective lense scopes have less error, and it makes sense too. I did just find a formula for determining what amount of parallax error you could have at what range, and it was based in part on the size of the objective lense.
Click to expand...

Can you post a link to that formula?

So you're getting the NF NX8?

I'm also looking for a 1-8x24 with a more typical holdover reticle.

I can afford NF prices but I'm not sure I can really justify it.

I found the Atibal 1-10 (in both SFP and FFP) but they are x30 scopes so in theory more parallax/focus issues if they're anything like my 6x30 Dedal.

Like you I shoot at close range in the basement but I also have quick and close shots to take on backyard rabbits. Makes sense for my basement rifle to be my rabbit rifle. Don't know how reliable I can be with consistent cheek weld when I have to take that quick shot at a rabbit.
Click to expand...

I have the NX8 4-32×50 and like everything about it. The NX8 1-8×24 should be just as good and quick on those fast bunnies at low power! If you can afford it, why not utilize the tools with the best features. Even the resale value is right up there at near retail pricing.

Here's a link that explains the whole thing

www.rimfirebenchrest.com/articles/parallax.html

Screenshot_20210104-2333292.1609821360.png

 
Upvote 0
If parallax is fixed you would have to be precise with eye centering to keep on target from what I have experienced. But shouldn't it "see" close up and focused, even at close yardages? The review videos on the LPVO scopes I have been watching lately don't mention any concerns with focus there (doing their close-range tactical range work). Does a fixed power scope not focus up close?
Click to expand...

Did you mean fixed parallax?

I've heard the 24mm objective LPVOs have less parallax error than scopes with larger objective lenses. This was mentioned most recently in one of the Alpha 6 threads where their LPVO was mentioned.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did mean parallax not power and fixed the "error" in that post. ;-)

It is good to hear that smaller objective lense scopes have less error, and it makes sense too. I did just find a formula for determining what amount of parallax error you could have at what range, and it was based in part on the size of the objective lense.
Click to expand...

Can you post a link to that formula?

So you're getting the NF NX8?

I'm also looking for a 1-8x24 with a more typical holdover reticle.

I can afford NF prices but I'm not sure I can really justify it.

I found the Atibal 1-10 (in both SFP and FFP) but they are x30 scopes so in theory more parallax/focus issues if they're anything like my 6x30 Dedal.

Like you I shoot at close range in the basement but I also have quick and close shots to take on backyard rabbits. Makes sense for my basement rifle to be my rabbit rifle. Don't know how reliable I can be with consistent cheek weld when I have to take that quick shot at a rabbit.
Click to expand...

I have the NX8 4-32×50 and like everything about it. The NX8 1-8×24 should be just as good and quick on those fast bunnies at low power! If you can afford it, why not utilize the tools with the best features. Even the resale value is right up there at near retail pricing.



Click to expand...

Well if I'm spending that kind of money I might as well get the new March 1-10x24 and have side focus. But honestly at that point I think I'd just get a dedicated bunny rifle with an Eotech and a separate woods rifle and scope combo.

At any rate, I don't want to take your thread any further off the rails. I found the original question interesting and hope it gets more input.

Please post your thoughts on shooting your NX8 1-8x24 at close range after you have some time with it.
 
Upvote 0
@airgun-hobbyist yeah all things equal the larger objective would bring in more light but honestly (and this is just my opinion) I don't think the difference optically (light coming in) would be worth the extra weight. I honestly think tube size you won't notice any difference in "light gathering," especially compared to objective size. Objective size yes there's a difference, but will ur eyes notice it? I doubt it. At least in my experience my 24mm objective scopes don't leave me wanting a bigger objective in low light but the scopes I'm looking through are known for good quality lenses and light transmission. 

The scopes are day scopes, a larger objective doesn't bring in SO much more light even in a 24 mm objective vs a 50, probably not a discernable amount to our eyes. I've seen some dark scopes (mtc I'm looking at you) but other than that I doubt you'd notice. Night vision obviously enhances what little amounts of light does come in. Imo I like my scopes on the lighter side so I honestly would go with the smaller size but if you don't mind the extra size and weight for what you perceive as "better at gathering light" then go for it. I just think if the glass is quality as it is, you'd just be wasting weight. Pard has an add on IR that goes in front of your scope for a decent price I'd use if you're concerned about darkness and your scope, but I use a nv008 (stand alone IR scope) instead of having to add more weight to a scope. 
 
Upvote 0
I think you'd like the NX8 1-8. The throw lever is the fastest of any that I have owned, and it's lighter than my EOTech + G33. I never liked having to work multiple dials on a hunting rifle, especially focus / parallax - it defeats the advantage of running an LVPO. I kept swapping it back and forth between my AR and Leshiy, until I put the Elcan on the AR. The NX8 1-8 stays on my Leshiy full time now as my little 200y truck gun lol

RE: fixed parallax, I have never had any issues. If you're doing precision 10y paper shooting, you might want to make sure that the mounting height and eye box are aligned to the cheek weld, but it's really no problem at all for hunting inside the 125m or whatever it's rated to. Trust me, the rabbit won't complain if he's hit center left of his eyeball vs. dead center 😂. I use mine like a red dot at low magnification when hunting / pesting from 10-60y, but it's nice being able to throw that lever quickly to shoot out to 200y if I need to.


 
Upvote 0
I think you'd like the NX8 1-8. The throw lever is the fastest of any that I have owned, and it's lighter than my EOTech + G33. I never liked having to work multiple dials on a hunting rifle, especially focus / parallax - it defeats the advantage of running an LVPO. I kept swapping it back and forth between my AR and Leshiy, until I put the Elcan on the AR. The NX8 1-8 stays on my Leshiy full time now as my little 200y truck gun lol

RE: fixed parallax, I have never had any issues. If you're doing precision 10y paper shooting, you might want to make sure that the mounting height and eye box are aligned to the cheek weld, but it's really no problem at all for hunting inside the 125m or whatever it's rated to. Trust me, the rabbit won't complain if he's hit center left of his eyeball vs. dead center
1f602.svg
. I use mine like a red dot at low magnification when hunting / pesting from 10-60y, but it's nice being able to throw that lever quickly to shoot out to 200y if I need to.

Click to expand...

The red dot for close range shots was my intention, as well as utilizing the holdover reticle, but with the benefit of being able to dial out to far yardages. The NX8 1-8 seems like it has every feature I could possibly need for short to long range use. We will see how it gathers light compared to the 4-32 though.

For night vision, I did get the Pard NV007 a few weeks ago and like it, though it isn't being set up on this scope or the Slayer. It will only see temporary use for filming night time coyote being shot here now that deer season is over. As a hand-held, the thing is really clear and lightweight.
 
Upvote 0
If you are looking for compact with the ability to focus up close. March is the only brand that makes a 1-10 or 1-8 with side focus. And it will focus much closer than the 10 yards spec - more like 6 feet minimum focus.

The price is not cheap but if you can get the March-F 1-8 it's an amazing clear and bright scope. Super clear through the whole 1-8x range and excellent light gathering for it's size. 
 
Upvote 0
If you are looking for compact with the ability to focus up close. March is the only brand that makes a 1-10 or 1-8 with side focus. And it will focus much closer than the 10 yards spec - more like 6 feet minimum focus.

The price is not cheap but if you can get the March-F 1-8 it's an amazing clear and bright scope. Super clear through the whole 1-8x range and excellent light gathering for it's size.
Click to expand...


You guys are suggesting some good scopes that I did not find when looking last week. The reticle and holdover ability matters most to me, and the March scope would have been near perfect as it illuminates the whole reticle. It is hard to find a LPVO with all the features that a large tactical scope has. With the Nightforce's larger MOA reticle I am hoping to just be able to holdover with fixed parallax at lower power and dial up the power for longer shots. And if needed I can dial up the top turret for extended ranges. While I would like to focus parallax up close, dialing while hunting might be too time consuming in the moment. I just hope the Nightforce is clear at close range.
 
Upvote 0
Just got the Vortex Razor III 1-10 for my all-around 3-gun type AR at 22 ounces, same as their previous 1-6. Seems worthwhile. Can't imagine it on an airgun but I'm not shooting larger calibers. Have had the less expensive Vipers (just as heavy) and a good Steiner 1-4 at 17 ounces and a few Leupolds that were simple and lightweight but not great for ARs. 

IMHO the larger front elements create a shallow depth of field where the tactical scopes with smaller front elements are effectively "stopped down" in comparison. So like a camera lens, the 56mm fronts allow you to use the AO to focus and isolate a plane, like a wide open lens. The 24mm front elements have a wider area of acceptably sharp focus, more margin of error, like a stopped down camera lens when you want to get both foreground and background to appear sharp.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed explanation of the different style of scope lenses and their ability. It makes perfect sense, and it is something that I had concerns about with the lack of parallax focus. 
 
Upvote 0
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Resources
Menu