SABOT PLEASE

  • Views : 1196
  • Link

    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

    Been waiting forever am tired of it.  Its high time the air industry made what
    will surely be the biggest advancement  most of us have ever seen.  Why at
    this day and age have they not done this?   Not to bash but geez come on. 
    For the life of me, if there is some technological  stone wall I don’t see it.
    Maybe some of you with better understanding could point out what I am missing?
                                                                         
                                                                                                      fuznut

    Link

    T3PRanch
    Participant
    Member

    Umarex is offering an entire line of Sabot projectiles for the Hammer and Black Powder rifles as well.

    https://www.umarexusa.com/blogs/airgun-news/umarex-arx-ammo-new-for-air-rifles-and-muzzleloaders

    Link

    myway
    Participant
    Member

    Google Sussex Sabot pellets. They used to be available in the UK. No longer available and had a poor reputation. 

    Link

    PelletPusher
    Participant
    Member

    Umarex Sabots posted by Thurmond seem really good.  Check out the Umarex Hammer Shot Show 2018 videos – they also show the sabot slugs in those videos. 

    Link

    Artie
    Participant
    Member

    For us newbies, what is a Sabot?

    Link

    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

    A sabot is a device usually made of plastic that will fit whatever caliber size.
    They can be configured to hold many different bullet types that are smaller than the
    caliber they are used in. After exiting the barrel the sabot and bullet separate.
    Since the bullet does not touch the barrel you can use a much harder alloy for deeper penetration. 
    The biggie, the holy grail for air gunners is it would free you from the restraints of drag
    stabilization.   No more velocity restraints imposed by the ammo resulting in a flatter trajectory. The wind is
    far less of an issue on a bullet than a pellet so less drift. A much higher BC .  On and on it would take a novel
    to list all advantages.  The air gun industry seems to be doing just what black powder has already done.
    They went from round ball to conical bullet just as we are going from pellet to slug.  But when they got the sabot
    every thing changed to the point now almost all black powder hunters are shooting a sabot of some kind.
       We air gunners should be doing the same especially in the larger calibers .
                                                                                                                                   fuznut
                                                                                                                              
        myway       good info did not know that thanks.  When they first appeared in blk p the early ones were crap too.
                           but the science is sound and proven not sure why we are still in dark ages.           
                                                                                                                        

    Link

    Gaberossi
    Participant
    Member

    I would love to try a sabot round in my airguns!

    Link

    Artie
    Participant
    Member

    Thanks for that explanation fuznut. I need to find a good “airgun” book. (Or hang out here more often than I do.)

    Link

    Kinetic45
    Participant
    Member

    Or the definition could be that a sabot is a caliber sized cup that holds a sub-caliber projectile that separates/drops off after leaving the barrel.

    It allows lighter projectile which usually means a higher velocity.  However, there are some major differences between the mechanics and physics of powder burners and pneumatics with the valves we use.  Shooting lighter pellets will generally give higher velocities but at a certain point the valving gets wonky because the pressure, valve dwell time, internal valve springs, hammer weight all combine to be very inefficient if set up for regular pellets.  A certain amount drag is actually needed in the bore to get a good pulse of air, the low friction plastic sabots seemed to leave the barrel to quickly and hence did not have good velocity after all, OR I had to adjust the pressure up so high it was very inefficient and consumed much more air per shot.

    I have been shooting custom built big bore pneumatics since the mid-ninety's and I tried sabots several times trying to work out all the problems.  To shoot them WELL, the gun has to be tuned to shoot only them is what I ended up at.  And I never could get much accuracy compared with regular pellets or slugs.

    Powder burners have the same problems with sabots and accuracy.  Yes, they are used but I have found in my Holy Black muzzle loaders that the plastic belted shoot better than the sabot bullets, the sabots are bad about flyers when the cup does not separate cleanly off the projectile.  In pneumatics, lower velocity launch and the slower spin from the slower rifling twist also complicates the sabots petals opening up so that drag pulls the cup off the back, A petal opening up late or not at all causes the shot to veer off sharply.  I found that I had quite a few odd shaped holes in the paper targets where the sabot had stayed on the bullet and caused tumbling or other accuracy defeating aerodynamics.  It should also be noted that the military does use some sabot rounds in tank killer rounds and some navel defense stuff like electromagnet hyper-velocity cannons but the engineering and cost is horrendous.

    Note that there is a bit of pistol ammo that uses sabot but it too is know for poorer accuracy (but in real world defense situations, a pistol is a short range weapon so accuracy is a much littler consideration.  How much accuracy does a defensive shooter need in a pistol? Are you / should you really be shooting at someone 50 yards away with a pistol?  The legal defense for that could be questionable and I live in a right to defend yourself state.)  I did hunt hogs and deer with pistols in the past and sabot handloads just did not have the accuracy I required for my honorable hunting ethics.

    I hunt hogs exclusively with air rifles now so consistent accuracy is more important than a target shooter who might not like a flyer but can accept an occasional one, I found sabots are a cool idea but not currently field ready in my .45 rifles.

    Link

    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

    Kenitic45    I like your definition of what a sabot is much better than mine.  Could you please

    explain further just what it is you are doing?   I assume you are shooting sabots intended for

    black powder through your air guns.  If so then yes you will have a hard go of it.  Accuracy and

    sabots has already advanced considerably from when they were first available.  I see no reason

    to think they will not continue to improve over time.  Shoot some through your deer rifles they wont

    group like your pet hand load but most guns will shoot them pretty close to factory loads.  Yes the

    black powder boot or belt as you call it works well and is far easier to manufacture  than a true sabot.

    It may well prove to be the way things go.   No other could potentially benefit from them to the degree

    air could.  Perhaps that is the problem and why they have not been offered.  When you start to run sabots

    the pellet gun would be a whole different thing that you probably don't want a kid in the back yard having access to.  

    But for you big bore guys the gains possible will be hard to ignore and its pretty much inevitable that some day

    a sabot  [ or some hybrid of it']  will be the round of choice for most.

                                                                                                                    fuznut

    Link

    Kinetic45
    Participant
    Member

    Sorry for the delay, VERY busy and not getting online much.

    Example 1:  About 16 years ago I had access to some Remington Accelerator .308 sabot/bullets (not normally sold as a component, just loaded ammunition but, 'contacts', you know, haha) which years later I tried to shoot in a .30 Marauder but I believe the choke and sabot are not compatible so accuracy was dismal.  These same .224/.308 Accelerators shot very well in handloads for a 300 Savage and also pretty darn well as a 20% reduced load in a 300 Weatherby interestingly enough so it was not the projectiles, just the air rifle.  I think part of the problem also was too slow a twist on the air rifle did not stabilize the light weight sabots.

    Example 2:  I have a small injection molding company locally and four years ago one of the guys I know turned me on to some custom .45 sabots for .357 bullets that were produced for a small manufacturer who was making 45ACP pistol ammunition and was testing the concept but when the project was cancelled I got all the ones produced but not shipped out yet.  I was shooting them in a 45 Quackenbush which is an old style air rifle and wished I had some today to try in a better, more modern Texan. Best I could ever get was 2.5" at 50 yards but about 16 inches at 100 so they were just tumbling for some reason.

    Link

    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

    Very interesting.    Slow twist rate needs a short bullet to stabilize , ball bearing, buck shot etc.

    Just guessing but assume velocity plays a major role for a sabot to work.  If you can ever come

    up with more try weakening the base of pedals or removing as many as possible. Might help to

    offset slower velocity.  Cool story thanks for sharing.

                                                                                                              fuznut  

    Link

    Almeidaken
    Participant
    Member

    Sabots have their own set of physics when it comes to accuracy. Spin needs to be imparted to the slug clasped inside a plastic shell and they should separate after exiting the barrel, now that's where things go wrong. Tight fitting shell will impart spin while it may not separate and a loose fitting shell wont impart the spin onto the slug. A pellet remains true to the center axis of the barrel while sabots don't. They may work if you intend to hit something within 40 yards or less in an air rifle. while in powder burners there is too much power and even a off balance slug will be lethal with cavity representing a keyhole.   

    Link

    fuznut
    Participant
    Member

    Lol  look at the tumbling bullet target.   If a man can do that. I sure as hell wont question anything he says.

     

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.