@qball, are you saying that with all regulated PCPs you need to scrub off a shot? I believe that's the method used with a regulator that is "creeping". But with a properly working regulator I don't believe that is the case.
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Regulated vs Unregulated
- Thread starter Biren
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All regulators I’ve tried FX or not creep, at the end of the day it’s mechanical device with moving parts which means you can’t expect 100% reliability. It moves by design and will move, only sure way is to scrub a few shots to be some are slightly better than others but they all creep simple physics. Only way for a regulator to never creep is computer controlled regulator based on sensor data.
unregulated guns have the transfer port that works as “regulator”, there is limitation on how much air can rush through the TP. It’s a physical limitation which has basically zero margin of error! there fore when within in the “sweet spot” the TP provides incredible consistency. Physical limitation will not change unless you drill it out or install a bigger one.
Most modern guns employ BOTH methods! This is to create consistency because regulators alone simply won’t cut it. Obviously this only works at the limit of the TP so as long as reg and Hammer system provides more air than the TP allows then there is the perception of no regulator creep because consistently is not relied upon the regulator only. I can tune all my FX to be unbelievable consistent even on the first shot by restricting TP. If you think about it, our little 5 dollar or less regulator (to manufacture) is in no way precise and it would be foolish for gun designer to rely on one component with large margin of error alone for consistency. Most people stick with factory tune which is designed around the TP so consistency is great even when the regulator isn’t working precisely there for creating the perception of no regulator creep.
Then why do I have to scrub first shots? At 7-8 FPE the TP needs to be barely bigger than my challengers’s TP which is TINY!!! Another way to put it, I’m way below the factory tune by choice. This however gives me the ability to shoot 7.9 grain CPHP @600fps and with a turn of 2 dials I am shooting 12frain NSA slugs at @900FPS and higher. This flexibility comes at the price of crazy consistency.
Good example is MP44’s Ultra SE. unbelievably consistent without a regulator through over 1000PSI pressure range, only thing gained by adding regulator is simply more shots in the sweet spot aka flatten the bell curve. My old Ultra SE had multiple shot strings with ES of 3-4 and SD of 1 over 10 shots in the sweet spot with pellets straight out of the tin. Another example is my 1720 has huma regulator and if I tune it down to 550FPS then I will notice the first shot POI shift/reg creep. But as I approach 8 FPE the TP takes over and first shot is dead on always.
In summary the regulator is there to keep the air pressure at a sweet spot RANGE for the TP. So when people complain about regulator creep that only means the tune/amount of air is below TP restriction limit.
edit: you want to know benchrest guys’ secret? Custom drilled TP. Hope they don’t come and look for me for letting their secret out.
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Wanna know another bench rest secret? With your PCP fire 15-20 blank shots just before you start shooting at your target...this makes your barrel ice cold and stiffens it up a lot and increases your accuracy and consistency tremendously! But don't tell everybody about this or everyone will be winning matches! 
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Wanna know another bench rest secret? With your PCP fire 15-20 blank shots just before you start shooting at your target...this makes your barrel ice cold and stiffens it up a lot and increases your accuracy and consistency tremendously! But don't tell everybody about this or everyone will be winning matches!
Ice cold steel...
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Wanna know another bench rest secret? With your PCP fire 15-20 blank shots just before you start shooting at your target...this makes your barrel ice cold and stiffens it up a lot and increases your accuracy and consistency tremendously! But don't tell everybody about this or everyone will be winning matches!
Ice cold steel...
He specifically stiffen up but that doesn’t usually go with ice cold, must be top secret stuff!
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@qball, thanks. My Bantam with the reg set at 150 bar has been first shot accurate over thousands of shots. My transfer port adjuster has six positions. For pesting I'm typically at TP level 6, sending the JSB Exact Jumbo 18s at approximately 875 fps. I shoot almost everyday weather allowing and keep a good eye on the gauges. I prize first round hits above all, and my plinking at black walnuts, half walnuts, from 40 to 64 yards bears this out. I've also just simply taken one first shot each day, or different times of the same day at the same paper target and have shot dime sized groups at forty yards on many occasions. I agree that all regulators will eventually creep, some sooner than others, but still don't believe that you have to "scrub off" shots on a properly working regulator.
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basically your tune has HS and Reg combo produce more air than TP physical allows to pass, pretty much all Airguns do that with factory tune. Example: your TP limitation is 7cc of air during that valve open period but the valve lets out 9cc vs 8cc of air depending on the reg creep, however the TP will let out 7cc if air regardless.
because my low power tune requires 5cc of air, the TP limit is at 7cc but the valve lets out 5cc or 6cc based on regulator creep then I would see fluctuation in my consistency because the TP will let out both 5cc and 6cc burst of air because it has not reach its 7cc limit.
here is a test: leave you TP on the highest setting and reduce your reg and or HS to shot 8 FPE on your super consistent bantam and you will certainly experience reg creep. Also as HS and reg is out of balance mostly HS is light which means it’s affected by reg creep more then the issues shows up even more. My guns have that problem, my crown mk2 is so powerful I had to get the reg up to 150 bars to drop power down to 6FPE so the hammer is particularly sensitive to reg creep. With HS, Reg and TP makes up the mechanical part of shooting a pellet, TP is the only one part when at limit is not a variable.
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Most regulators tend to creep after awhile ... esp if you change settings a few times. Many shooters never notice it because their accuracy requirements don’t reveal it.
I have both kinds, but normally end up rebuilding or replacing regs at least yearly. I have un-regged rifles that deliver fifty to ninety precision shots from fill pressures under 1600psi.
For hunting, I prefer a regged rifle, as they are generally smaller and lighter for a certain power and shot count, but for match shoots, Iean toward un-regged.
LD
I have both kinds, but normally end up rebuilding or replacing regs at least yearly. I have un-regged rifles that deliver fifty to ninety precision shots from fill pressures under 1600psi.
For hunting, I prefer a regged rifle, as they are generally smaller and lighter for a certain power and shot count, but for match shoots, Iean toward un-regged.
LD
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Shooting .25 the air consumption is increased a great deal over a .22 rifle and I went with a regulated Air Arms Ultimate Sporter. My .22 Marauder is unregulated and it is fine up to 20 yards and above 2200 PSI. I added the Marauder Field & Target in .22 caliber for more shots per fill when I do not need the hitting power of the .25 pellet. The Field & Target is regulated from the factory and the only mod has been to add a Sumo moderator. At $730 the regulated Marauder is only $230 more than the unregulated Marauder and so a pretty good deal overall.
I have a small compressor to fill the rifle tanks but it is hardly a mobile setup and buying a large CF tank and making weekly trips to the scuba store is not very appealing. Nor is spending several thousand dollars for a compressor (and finding a place to keep it) capable of doing my own scuba tank fills. As a diver I had four 3500 PSI rated steel tanks to get through a day of diving and not about to make that investment in time and money for my air rifles.
I have a small compressor to fill the rifle tanks but it is hardly a mobile setup and buying a large CF tank and making weekly trips to the scuba store is not very appealing. Nor is spending several thousand dollars for a compressor (and finding a place to keep it) capable of doing my own scuba tank fills. As a diver I had four 3500 PSI rated steel tanks to get through a day of diving and not about to make that investment in time and money for my air rifles.
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qball: I know very little about valve openings and transfer ports but your statement has me really confused - "basically your tune has HS and Reg combo produce more air than TP physical allows to pass, pretty much all Airguns do that with factory tune. Example: your TP limitation is 7cc of air during that valve open period but the valve lets out 9cc vs 8cc of air depending on the reg creep, however the TP will let out 7cc if air regardless." - My question is if the valve lets out Xcc's of air doesn't it ALL have to go thru the TP? Can't see how it would just stay between the valve and the TP. I must be reading this wrong - hence the confused part?
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Good info! I am a new member looking to get in to the pcp world after shooting springers. This place is a great source of information.
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Most Airguns have the valve opening right below the TP so the amount space to fill is as limited as possible to prevent lost of power/energy. The space between the valve and end of muzzle is sealed so all air or any positive pressure will have to equalize with outside air through TP and muzzle. Or once the air leaves the valve all of it has to go through TP then “chamber” then end of the barrel, there will air left and stay in that little area but it is the same pressure as outside air or equalized. Hope that helped with clearing up any confusion.
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A rifle that was designed to be regulated will give more shots per fill and more constant fps with in the working of the regulator.
A rifle that was designed to be unregulated normally loose capabilities if you adapt a regulator on it.
I have unregulated rifles in diverse calibers that are as accurate or more accurate than my regulated rifles in the same caliber.
If you just filled the rifle and you have to shot at a deer, the unregulated rifle will hit exactly where it should. The regulated rifles normally have the first two shots after the filling that do not hit exactly as they should. After that the string is more flat on regulated rifles than the one of the unregulated ones.
A rifle that was designed to be unregulated normally loose capabilities if you adapt a regulator on it.
I have unregulated rifles in diverse calibers that are as accurate or more accurate than my regulated rifles in the same caliber.
If you just filled the rifle and you have to shot at a deer, the unregulated rifle will hit exactly where it should. The regulated rifles normally have the first two shots after the filling that do not hit exactly as they should. After that the string is more flat on regulated rifles than the one of the unregulated ones.
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I generally prefer unregulated for hunting, regulated for target shooting, but will use regulated for hunting if the reg is rock solid, no creep, first shot POI change, which is rare.
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ALL that's required to get regulated consistency from unregulated PCPs is for the shooter to tune or DE-tune his gun, and test, test, TEST enough to pin-point the charge pressure of his gun that returns a tight Extreme Spread bell-curve power-band, then adhere to that charge pressure. I DE-tuned my $500, Chinese-made, .30 AEA Challenger bullpup down from 150 foot-pounds to "only" 80 FP to find a bell-curve.
The bell-curve at that power level comes at only 120 BAR, and returns only 6-9 shots depending on how wide ES I accept. But by shooting no more than 6 shots per charge the ES stays within 25 FPS ES, with single-digit standard deviations.
The acid test then comes at 100 yards, shooting five-shot groups. So far she's AVERAGING 1.24 - 1.4" center-to-center five-shot groups at 100 yards; the best groups measuring less than .70" center-to-center.
I've won multiple long-range bench-rest airgun competitions with similarly-tuned, similarly-priced, Korean hunting rifles (.22 Career and .25 Sumatra)... against the finest regulated PCPs on Earth.
Notice the award certificate reads "Match Winner & 35 Foot Pound Winner", yet pictures my .22 Career; a Korean maxi-blaster known for producing 60-70 foot pounds. No, I didn't;t cheat; I just DE-tuned it to max out at 34 foot-pounds with a 2400 PSI charge.
Suffice to say the term "legendarily accurate Career barrels" is no exaggeration! Witness the fact that none other than Allen Zasadny often uses them when modifying high-dollar PCPs for IMPROVED performance. Enough said.
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