Recommend me something... AT44 vs. AT44Tac vs. Mrod vs....?

"zebra"

"glengiles"I would suggest buying new for your first PCP unless you have a burning desire to be a tinkerer/gun smith. Any issue, send it back and get another one or something else or your money back Used, you're on your own. There's a big difference in lower dollar platforms like the Hatsan or Benjamin as opposed to FX or Daystate where the latter can typically fill to 4000 psi or more and the former usually hover at 3000 psi or slightly under. This makes a huge difference in pumping and even tank filling. The nice thing about the higher psi guns is you typically get many more shots per fill. Because of the ammo costs and air usage, .25's are not really considered target or plinking platforms but are pretty much seen as a hunting/pesting platform.

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I'll respectfully disagree (a little) on some of those points.

If you buy used, it doesn't mean you are on your own if something goes wrong, it just means you have to pay for the repairs yourself instead of getting it under warranty. That may or may not be worth the risk, depending on the gun and how good the deal is on a used one. Common repair like a repeal are not that expensive.

Ammo costs are not massively different between 22 and 25. I don't think 25 cal pellets are too expensive for plinking. I plink with them all the time. I get 60 shots per fill with my 25 Cricket. It's a great plinker.

on pumping the larger reservoir guns, it certainly takes longer and I wouldn't want to do it but, if I had to pump, I would prefer to do it once for more shots than having to pump every 20 rounds. Plus, you don't have to fill it all the way if you wanted to pump for less time. It's good to have the option to have more shots. 

If I had to go with a pumping set-up, I would look at the FX Indy. It's not my cup of tea at all, but, I would prefer it over the usual hand pump setups. In the smaller calibers, the Indy looks tolerable.

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*We're just talking here, I didn't perceive your post as an 'attack' and I'm not throwing it back. Put this dialog in a booth at a bar where we're sharing a pitcher of beer and talking about a mutual friend that's looking to get into PCP.

I too respectively disagree as I think you misunderstood where my theoretical approach was coming from. I feel your response lends itself to a higher budget than what I gathered this purchase to be. I could totally be off on that assumption but considering the topic was Hatsan and Benjamin the champions of low/entry level PCP budgets....

If you buy a new gun for $700 or a used one for $500, any issue with the used one and you have a budget of $200 for shipping and repairs to break even and at that point and you still don't have a warranty. If you have more money for the gun then it doesn't matter what it costs or what it might cost to repair if it needs repair. And, like I mentioned, if you are fine with doing the repairs yourself then you could easily be money ahead, which is great. I've done both; my first PCP was a used Hatsan that ended up being a nightmare. By the time I gathered all the data on it I could it had been at least 3 other owners 'project' gun. As one that has zero desire or inclination to try and fix it myself, or pay someone else $100's for parts, labor, shipping to bring it back to original specs, I moved it on, with full disclosure, and saved up for a brand new gun with a full warranty. So the OP is asking for our opinions and all of our responses are uniquely shaped by our own personal experiences, including mine. 

I'm not sure how 'more' turned into "massively expensive" but again, one could say that .25 PCP is a bargain compared to some center fire cartridges that sell for over $10 per round. If you're on a budget .177 and .22 are cheaper to shoot than .25 per shot. That's a fact and that's all I'm saying. Plinking typically equates lots of shots so if budget is a concern then lower calibers will probably be the best choice. Again, if you have the budget to plink w/.25 or .30 or even .50, great, but that's not how I interpreted this topic.

When shooting alone I have to hand pump my .25 Gladius and in addition to the cardio workout the grips on my pump really irritate my hands. With the most recent tune, I get 18 shots in a good curve at max power. That's a lot of work for plinking. Rather than put more money into a better pump I'd rather keep my pump as an emergency back up and save up for a tank system but a fill system is, on the entry level, about equal to the gun budget. I totally agree that as a concept the FX Indy seems highly attractive albeit about 4 times the price of a Hatsan or Benjamin. I'm certain it would be 4 times the gun and totally worth it. I've shot a variety of PCP's but have yet to shoot an FX. I'm looking forward to that opportunity. I'm envious you have that opportunity daily! Looking forward to your thoughts, I always enjoy reading your posts. 

By "not massively different", all I meant is that, there is only a $1 difference per 200 tin between the H&N hunter extreme pellets I use in 22 and 25. The difference is small enough to be irrelevant (at least to me). Imo, if a person's finances are tight enough for that $1 per tin to be a concern, they should probably hold off on buying any PCP gun. It's not a cheap hobby. 

It's a different story with some of the larger calibers. The price of a tin of 50 caliber pellets is high enough that I probably wouldn't want to use them for every day plinking, even if they made a 50 cal rifle that was "backyard friendly". 

We were talking about higher end air rifles because the thread-starter asked about them in response to me saying that, if I was doing it all again, I would have skipped the entry level air rifles and gone straight to one of the mid-high end ones. 

If I was buying another Hatsan, I would probably go with a 22 because I think their 25's are under-powered and not worth the increase in noise. If I was buying another Marauder, I would go with a 25 because they use better barrels. 

Yep, if it was a .22 I'd get the Hatsan over the Mrod too. I bet the difference in ammo price is the brand we shoot, which so for me has been determined by what each gun like best. I've tried several brands in my .22 but only two brands so far in my .25 and JSB ends up being the better pellet in each, for me. At Pyramid, a tin of the .22 JSB's I shoot, the 18.13 gr, is $17 for a 500 count tin whereas the JSB .25's I shoot, the 25.39 gr is $17 for a 300 count. That's 200 less pellets for the same money going from .22 to .25. This tells me I should perhaps further explore the possibilities and performance of the H&N pellets!

There are a couple of things that seem to be missed here. The OP requested something that could be stored for months, yet be ready in an instant. That's not PCP, since they're not supposed to be stored with air in them for too long.

He also said he wanted something that is backyard friendly, but could take something as big as a raccoon. In my opinion. .22 is not backyard-friendly. They just carry too much energy downrange in case of a miss or ricochet. Stick with .177 and use heavy pellets. My .177 Marauder is dead accurate, and on one shot on a squirrel, it entered through one shoulder, then out the top of his arm, in through a rib, through the whole guts, out the belly, and into the rear leg. The other five I've shot in the past couple weeks were two straight through head shots and a straight through chest shot. That would be enough energy to get in to a 'coon through a rib and well into the clockwork. He won't die quite as fast as if he'd been hit with a .25, but he won't be suffering long either. I'd give him 30 seconds with a lung shot. Racoons have big heads, compared to squirrels, so head shots are easier, and you don't even need much power to shut his lights out with a head shot. Probably 7-8 ft-lbs. would do it.

If I had $1200 to get started, I'd split it between two guns:

a) Benjamin Marauder in .177 with an inexpensive scope (they don't need to be recoil-resistant; get at least 12x) and a Hill pump. This'll be for the orchard or pest control at home when you know you have a good back stop. I keep mine filled by the back door, and when I see invasive birds, squirrels, skunks, opossums, I put 'em down with this one. I figure you could do this for $900 or less.

b) Weihrauch HW30s or Beeman R7 (almost the same gun) in .177 for backyard plinking. This is the one that is ready to go in an instant, and so much fun. It'd work on birds (body shots) and probably even raccoons with head shots out to 30 yards. It's easy to cock, well-made, easy to carry, not too hold-sensitive, and beautifully made. More power than this, and springers get a bit loud for the back yard. You could also shoot this one indoors, if you have 10 yards to spare. A box full of rubber mulch makes a good support. These are about $350, I think.

The Marauder is quieter, and with more power.

SmaugThere are a couple of things that seem to be missed here. The OP requested something that could be stored for months, yet be ready in an instant. That's not PCP, since they're not supposed to be stored with air in them for too long.

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Leaving a pcp empty for extended periods of time is the worst thing you can do. Always leave a pcp pressurized. There are many different thoughts on how many psi to store a gun at, but you should leave pressure in a pcp.

"ajshoots"

"Smaug"There are a couple of things that seem to be missed here. The OP requested something that could be stored for months, yet be ready in an instant. That's not PCP, since they're not supposed to be stored with air in them for too long.

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Leaving a pcp empty for extended periods of time is the worst thing you can do. Always leave a pcp pressurized. There are many different thoughts on how many psi to store a gun at, but you should leave pressure in a pcp.

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Yeah, what I had read is that it is best to store a PCP with a little pressure in it; like maybe 100 psi or something. But not at full pressure, as that will stretch the tank and maybe wear out the seals prematurely.

I put mine back in the safe full. Been doing it for years and no issues. If I were to plan long term storage, I would probably drop em down to 1000psi. Even multi pump guns should be stored with a pump or 2 in them.

That only applies to extended storage. If you intend to put your gun away for a few years without use, "they" (whoever they are) say that it should be stored with around 1000 psi of pressure. 

For or a gun that gets regular use, there is no problem leaving it full. I keep air in all of my regularly used pcp guns. I keep air in my scba tanks too, and expect no issues while in their useful service life. They absolutely will not "stretch". They are made to stand double the pressure they are rated for (or more) or there would be a lot more safety issues than we see. 

As this would be his first gun, I can't imagine it is going into storage any time soon.