Sure! if you will PM me with your email I can get Leah to send you over a dealer application in the morning!
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RAW REPORT
- Thread starter Hynzie
- Start date
Sure! if you will PM me with your email I can get Leah to send you over a dealer application in the morning!
I have had no dealings or issues with AirForce. I was trying to reply to another post. Sorry.
Craig
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Yes the R7OC is down, Phil is trying to get it going but a lot of the technical stuff is missing, I think patience is needed.
as for the tactical stuff, I don’t know of anyone doing it on a commercial basis, they tend to be done by enthusiasts in there own workshops.
Ernie Swift used to be one of the “go to” guy for tactical stuff but had taken a sabbatical for a few years but I believe he has recently got back into it.
one of the nicest tactical rapids is Stuart’s aka CAverminator “ überrapid, I will try and find a photo
Bb
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to rapid air weapons.
I think the big appeal of raw when martin was handleing it was the the customer got to talk to martin and go over ideas with him on his or her build.
I honestly feel if martin was able to set aside 1 day a week for emails and to talk to customers over the phone about a build would do wonders for sales.
and keep people interested...… martin is a true air gun guru. he knows his stuff and people know that about him.
and there was nothing like it in the ag world to be able to talk to the builder.... I think that is the part we all all missing. and this page has really slowed down
even including my self I only come on here once a year now... but when martin was running it I was on here daily.. yes every single day.
I think the big appeal of raw when martin was handleing it was the the customer got to talk to martin and go over ideas with him on his or her build.
I honestly feel if martin was able to set aside 1 day a week for emails and to talk to customers over the phone about a build would do wonders for sales.
and keep people interested...… martin is a true air gun guru. he knows his stuff and people know that about him.
and there was nothing like it in the ag world to be able to talk to the builder.... I think that is the part we all all missing. and this page has really slowed down
even including my self I only come on here once a year now... but when martin was running it I was on here daily.. yes every single day.
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I definitely understand where you are coming from, what I also don't think many folks know is that the choice to step back from the phones/emails/customer service part of the day to day goings-on at RAW was 100% Martins choice. It was also a major factor in why he approached AirForce about a partnership in the first place. ( Again, a fact that I think many don't know, Martin approached AF about buying out RAW, not the other way around.)
For those die-hards who still want a one-off or custom tuning, Airguns USA is Martins outlet for that, although he answers those calls and emails at his own leisure as it is a separate operation from RAW.
One thing we have been kicking around in order to both answer questions, as well as explain new products, repair procedures etc... is adding an "Ask Martin" section to our soon to be rebuilt website. Hopefully, this would create a backlog of good information for RAW users to find all the info they might need about the most common questions about RAW, it would also be a place where Martin could address new projects that he is working on and get feedback from the community on.
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I understand why Martin made this business decision. First, he needed more manufacturing capacity for making parts and a larger infrastructure to handle other aspects. He got too many calls from people that just wanted to bullpoop to pick his brains (guilty) which took him away from running the shop. He was very generous and patient putting up with us. RAW rifles are till a premier product, but it seems that many now want space rifles with all kinds of whiz-bangs thinking that they can shoot better. WRONG! Any rifle will shoot well in capable hands. Now the big fad is shooting slugs at extended ranges. There are darm few of us that have long range facilities or the need to do this, but the lure is there. Next year, some other company will come out with an improved product supplanting what's popular today. Every dog has it's day.
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Yep, it would seem that the trend today is that the rifle makes the shooter, of course, I don't agree.
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to rapid air..
I have been a rapid fan for over 20years, the only gun I would swap my rapids for are RAWs only because I prefer the side cocking lever, everything else apart from the scope rails and stocks are for almost identical.
However, I did buy a new gun recently, not because I thought it would be more accurate that the guns I already have (I can’t see how it actually could be) but because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. In many ways, it has exceeded my expectations but it has also confirmed my doubts. The things I really like (and so do many other by the about of forum space it occupies) are the ease of adjustment, some of those, like the valve control knob would be an easy modification to do to the RAW, the externally adjustable reg would not be so easy but a back fillable reg inside the neck of the buddy bottle would free up plenum volume for those who are chasing power while also doing away with the v fill system allowing for an even larger valve cap plenum to be fitted. (This has already been done by a guy in his shed)
There are a few issues that need to be resolved on the RAW to make it worthy of it price, fitting an unfinished spring on poorly fitting spring guide or the valve chamber and hammer channel not running concentric with each other, simply isn’t good enough. The new valve cap is a step forward but the long unstable valve return spring is truly horrible. Another part that has recently been changed is the one piece hammer pip assembly, why on earth was that done? It removes one on the most important tuning aids on the RAW/ rapid and that is the pip length. Getting a low powered gun to run consistently with a short hammer pip and week spring is a nightmare, it has a lock time measured in historic periods rather than milliseconds. Likewise, get power from a hammer with a long pip requires the spring from the rear axle of a 1960’s mustang. Whoever designed those parts clearly has no understanding of how the gun works.
This might seem as though I am nit picking or a hate, I really am not, what I am is frustrated at what I consider the best airgun available is being let down by small details that make a big and detrimental difference. I am sorry but IMO, what come out of the factory does not close to the guns true potential.
Bb
I have been a rapid fan for over 20years, the only gun I would swap my rapids for are RAWs only because I prefer the side cocking lever, everything else apart from the scope rails and stocks are for almost identical.
However, I did buy a new gun recently, not because I thought it would be more accurate that the guns I already have (I can’t see how it actually could be) but because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. In many ways, it has exceeded my expectations but it has also confirmed my doubts. The things I really like (and so do many other by the about of forum space it occupies) are the ease of adjustment, some of those, like the valve control knob would be an easy modification to do to the RAW, the externally adjustable reg would not be so easy but a back fillable reg inside the neck of the buddy bottle would free up plenum volume for those who are chasing power while also doing away with the v fill system allowing for an even larger valve cap plenum to be fitted. (This has already been done by a guy in his shed)
There are a few issues that need to be resolved on the RAW to make it worthy of it price, fitting an unfinished spring on poorly fitting spring guide or the valve chamber and hammer channel not running concentric with each other, simply isn’t good enough. The new valve cap is a step forward but the long unstable valve return spring is truly horrible. Another part that has recently been changed is the one piece hammer pip assembly, why on earth was that done? It removes one on the most important tuning aids on the RAW/ rapid and that is the pip length. Getting a low powered gun to run consistently with a short hammer pip and week spring is a nightmare, it has a lock time measured in historic periods rather than milliseconds. Likewise, get power from a hammer with a long pip requires the spring from the rear axle of a 1960’s mustang. Whoever designed those parts clearly has no understanding of how the gun works.
This might seem as though I am nit picking or a hate, I really am not, what I am is frustrated at what I consider the best airgun available is being let down by small details that make a big and detrimental difference. I am sorry but IMO, what come out of the factory does not close to the guns true potential.
Bb
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I'm forwarding your comments to Martin for a response as he is the designer and builder of the rifles and I want him to explain exactly why he does things the way he does. I will post his response here, as soon as he replies.
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Comparing a full custom rapid based design against a production model is clearly unfair. I am the owner of one of Ernie Olsen aka Swift Rapid's
and YES, for $6000 one should expect the craftsmanship & attention to detail to be unprecedented.
The consumers asked for a tactical version RAW. Not only has RAW delivered a production ready tactical chassis, but also one that is backwards compatible! How about some kudos instead of criticism?
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Thanks for the response. Any links to any of these tactical builds? I am interested in doing one but no need to reinvent the wheel if I do not have to!
Just looking for aome tried and true methods or if anyone adapted existing parts. Thanks again.P.S. The valve I installed I got from you is fantastic! Added almost 100fps without any other adjustments and has been leak free.
Kindest Regards.
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This response comes directly from Martin in regard to Bucketboys statements:
“ In regard to the hammer, are you running from the pure assumption that we have the one hammer for all powers? There are multiple hammer lengths depending on what the rifle is being built to do. Why the change from the original Theoben 1990 hammer design, simple, the original Theoben design was built for 12ft lbs, failures began showing up on FAC guns back in the mid '90s, at that time a change happened when the screw was given a shoulder, then RAW went up to 50, 60, 100 -200 + ft-lbs, now that design was failing as parts were breaking, so to make this robust we took out the weak part, the joint where it was breaking, this change has been in effect since 2018, nothing new and no breakages.
The long valve spring and plenum extender was only on the 22 high power rifles giving 50ft lbs plus, other calibers do not use those parts, again this is nothing new as these parts have been around for at least 4-5 years, however current builds as of late last year no longer use those parts as plenum extenders are no longer required on that caliber due to efficiency being obtained elsewhere.
Regarding the valve chamber and hammer alignment issue, this is not something we have seen in production and only seen on the recent one post, it would have been good if the customer had simply returned it for our inspection and replacement instead of sending parts out of the USA to the UK, especially when we're just down the road so to speak, we would still invite the customer to send those parts back for replacement and inspection so that we can determine if any alignment issue exists at all.
We would also take this opportunity to explain the change to the brass valve from stainless, which happened early 2018, the stainless pin on a stainless valve body was giving galling and seizing on some of the higher-powered versions, changing away from two similar materials has resulted in zero galling and 100% reliability in 1000+ valves in operation.
Rather than assuming things, We invite any customer with any questions or concerns, to simply give us a call or send us an e-mail."
“ In regard to the hammer, are you running from the pure assumption that we have the one hammer for all powers? There are multiple hammer lengths depending on what the rifle is being built to do. Why the change from the original Theoben 1990 hammer design, simple, the original Theoben design was built for 12ft lbs, failures began showing up on FAC guns back in the mid '90s, at that time a change happened when the screw was given a shoulder, then RAW went up to 50, 60, 100 -200 + ft-lbs, now that design was failing as parts were breaking, so to make this robust we took out the weak part, the joint where it was breaking, this change has been in effect since 2018, nothing new and no breakages.
The long valve spring and plenum extender was only on the 22 high power rifles giving 50ft lbs plus, other calibers do not use those parts, again this is nothing new as these parts have been around for at least 4-5 years, however current builds as of late last year no longer use those parts as plenum extenders are no longer required on that caliber due to efficiency being obtained elsewhere.
Regarding the valve chamber and hammer alignment issue, this is not something we have seen in production and only seen on the recent one post, it would have been good if the customer had simply returned it for our inspection and replacement instead of sending parts out of the USA to the UK, especially when we're just down the road so to speak, we would still invite the customer to send those parts back for replacement and inspection so that we can determine if any alignment issue exists at all.
We would also take this opportunity to explain the change to the brass valve from stainless, which happened early 2018, the stainless pin on a stainless valve body was giving galling and seizing on some of the higher-powered versions, changing away from two similar materials has resulted in zero galling and 100% reliability in 1000+ valves in operation.
Rather than assuming things, We invite any customer with any questions or concerns, to simply give us a call or send us an e-mail."
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As an old Theoben fan plus the older Martin built RAW's both were a step above many other brands.
Change is hard to except but we live with it. Changes to the Raw line have been always changing as other brands.
People always want more. Martin set his guns up to optimize the power vs the pellet. Many wanted more power but his guns used every bit of the power and accuracy.
Slugs have come to the popular demand as the big bores came to be. Then moving the slugs to the .22. Slugs are another beast and time and money to find that ultimate slug that the guns shoot plus nin choked barrels seem to be a must for all the performance.
Seeing a tactical RAW in my eyes is nice. I converted the Theoben MKII many years ago to the tactical stock. It made for a nice feel and shooter.
The market years ago brought to us the tactical guns and bullpups. And as the market demanded the design took off.
I'm not surprised that AF made this happen to the Raw. AF gun always had their own look. Plus this days we see other brands take on the AF simular look.
Been away from the RAW brand for a few years. Still have to be great guns and made in the USA. BUT not a mom and pop operation so to speak anymore.
RAW was a big plus to the AF company. Still great for the USA owners for customer service, warranty vs non USA other brands and vendors. ALL JMO
RAWLESS now
Change is hard to except but we live with it. Changes to the Raw line have been always changing as other brands.
People always want more. Martin set his guns up to optimize the power vs the pellet. Many wanted more power but his guns used every bit of the power and accuracy.
Slugs have come to the popular demand as the big bores came to be. Then moving the slugs to the .22. Slugs are another beast and time and money to find that ultimate slug that the guns shoot plus nin choked barrels seem to be a must for all the performance.
Seeing a tactical RAW in my eyes is nice. I converted the Theoben MKII many years ago to the tactical stock. It made for a nice feel and shooter.
The market years ago brought to us the tactical guns and bullpups. And as the market demanded the design took off.
I'm not surprised that AF made this happen to the Raw. AF gun always had their own look. Plus this days we see other brands take on the AF simular look.
Been away from the RAW brand for a few years. Still have to be great guns and made in the USA. BUT not a mom and pop operation so to speak anymore.
RAW was a big plus to the AF company. Still great for the USA owners for customer service, warranty vs non USA other brands and vendors. ALL JMO
RAWLESS now
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who else loves their raw for bench rest. I have an ds air wolf and very accurate but theres just something about the raw bm500 that is solid and it dosent want to move much on the bench. I find most air guns are easy to move and not easy to steady. the raw bm500 feels like a rock and solid. wow I like it
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most accurate air gun I have ever shot at 25m and 50 yards I have ever used. and its a 177 raw bm500
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What velocities are you getting shooting .25 slugs? I am shooting 33.95 mk2`s at 850fps(Martin tune), and Griffin 30gr hp at 360fps.
1/2" groups at 50 yards with the Griffin slugs.
I have lots of slugs, NSA, Rat Sniper and Griffin. Slug weights range from 25gr, to 34.7gr. So far the 30gr HP .249 Griffin shoots the best. I want more power for longer shots. What speeds work for you ?
1/2" groups at 50 yards with the Griffin slugs.
I have lots of slugs, NSA, Rat Sniper and Griffin. Slug weights range from 25gr, to 34.7gr. So far the 30gr HP .249 Griffin shoots the best. I want more power for longer shots. What speeds work for you ?
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For info to all rapid and raw fans the R7OC is back but not under Phil anymore. Address is below:
https://www.rapid7ownersclub.co.uk/
https://www.rapid7ownersclub.co.uk/
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