RAW REPORT

Just inspected the TP hole in the action of HM1000X .25 60 ftlb. It is round. But the TP in the barrel is rectangular. 

What can be the reason of this mismatch?

If the TP in the action is round then TP in the barrel should also be round to get full potential of power I understand. 

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

1537980363_13918894495babb7cbabe715.69174006_20180926_213821.jpg


Regards, 

Umair Bhaur

Looks like less technical matters here and more cosmetics?

Just waiting for the response from those in the know.

Regards, 

Umair Bhaur

Anyone technical person in the know here ?
 
Talk to Ken @SPAW!, or call Airforce they will find out from Martin himself! I have an Idea why? But don’t want to say something I can’t confirm until I pull my .30 cal. Barrel to look @ it!, 2 questions, is it original barrel? Are you original owner?, I know most X actions have picatiny rail yours is dovetail?

Yes it is original barrel. I am original and first owner. I opted for dovetail action as all my high end scope mounts are dovetail based.

I can also write to Ken or Martin as I imported my RAW directly from Martin and it was made just before the takeover by Airforce.

After that takeover, things look a bit strange. I needed some specs, I asked Ken and Martin (as I remember) but no one was willing to provide the specs.

There is no more phone call contact available as it was previously.

I wish that all users enter into more technical areas of RAW guns and participate technical knowledge here rather than just enjoying the stock colours etc.

I am thousands of KM away from US so I have to maintain my RAW guns myself. That is why I need a lot of technical specs from time to time.

Regards,



Umair Bhaur
 
Mubhaur,

Since I swap 3 barrels (mostly two) into my RAW, here's what I have:

.25 caliber (LW, Traditional rifling, non-polygon) transfer port: circular port

.25 caliber (polygon) transfer port: circular port: rectangular with rounded corners

.30 caliber transfer port: circular.

I would have responded sooner, but I didn't because I thought you were asking about the passage in the action of the gun-not the transfer port in the barrel itself. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I do have a caliber now, so I could get dimensions of the 3 and calculate the equivalent 'flow areas' for you if you wish? Just let me know...



Sean
 
Mubhaur,

Since I swap 3 barrels (mostly two) into my RAW, here's what I have:

.25 caliber (LW, Traditional rifling, non-polygon) transfer port: circular port

.25 caliber (polygon) transfer port: circular port: rectangular with rounded corners

.30 caliber transfer port: circular.

I would have responded sooner, but I didn't because I thought you were asking about the passage in the action of the gun-not the transfer port in the barrel itself. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I do have a caliber now, so I could get dimensions of the 3 and calculate the equivalent 'flow areas' for you if you wish? Just let me know...



Sean

Thank you very much dear Sean,

I think I couldn't explain my question. 

The air flow hole in the action is round in my gun but the air flow hole in the barrel is rectangular. 

This looks to be a mismatch to me.

All the air released from the action's airflow hole can't pass through the the rectangular transfer port of barrel as far as I understand. 

I also understand the rectangular shape increases the total area as compared to round hole.

But I need some discussion on this difference. 

Please also share that what power levels do you achieve with your above mentioned set ups.

Regards 
 
To be honest, the discussion you are seeking to have is a design discussion - one that I'm certain Martin will not partake in because it would either a) give insight into the product's design that he doesn't want to be public knowledge or b) perhaps expose a design 'miss' that could be a potential improvement another manufacturer could act upon as a design improvement. Despite being an engineer myself, I do not have drawings, cross sections, etc to look at to give you my own assessment on the issue so I will not comment further on it aside to make the comments I just did as to why you won't get those questions answered (and I want to be clear: my points a) and b) are completely my speculation alone).

I actually did understand your original question. So the reason I didn't respond was because I don't have the direct insight into the design to answer your question and, if I did, I likely wouldn't post the answers publicly, but would instead message you directly.

Having said that, the answers to what power levels I'm obtaining with each barrel is all contained within my BC testing posts of my RAW since I have not changed the hammer spring tension on the gun since I began swapping barrels and performing BC testing. The weather conditions are all clearly stated, the pellets tested are noted, and the velocities at muzzle (well, actually at 3 feet away from the muzzle) are all stated. My .25 cal setup is currently running between 60-62 fpe, my .30 cal setup is 76-78 fpe. As soon as you start to compared and make qualitative assessments as to the 'why' they are those numbers at the same 'action settings' you will open an engineering discussion regarding efficiencies of port design, flow paths, orifices in series, etc. I don't have data to back up statements I may make, so I'm going to withhold my comments.

Sorry I can't provide more assistance to help answer your questions. I hope 'not having an answer to these inquiries' isn't hindering your ability to use or service your current RAW's that you own?



Sean
 
To be honest, the discussion you are seeking to have is a design discussion - one that I'm certain Martin will not partake in because it would either a) give insight into the product's design that he doesn't want to be public knowledge or b) perhaps expose a design 'miss' that could be a potential improvement another manufacturer could act upon as a design improvement. Despite being an engineer myself, I do not have drawings, cross sections, etc to look at to give you my own assessment on the issue so I will not comment further on it aside to make the comments I just did as to why you won't get those questions answered (and I want to be clear: my points a) and b) are completely my speculation alone).

I actually did understand your original question. So the reason I didn't respond was because I don't have the direct insight into the design to answer your question and, if I did, I likely wouldn't post the answers publicly, but would instead message you directly.

Having said that, the answers to what power levels I'm obtaining with each barrel is all contained within my BC testing posts of my RAW since I have not changed the hammer spring tension on the gun since I began swapping barrels and performing BC testing. The weather conditions are all clearly stated, the pellets tested are noted, and the velocities at muzzle (well, actually at 3 feet away from the muzzle) are all stated. My .25 cal setup is currently running between 60-62 fpe, my .30 cal setup is 76-78 fpe. As soon as you start to compared and make qualitative assessments as to the 'why' they are those numbers at the same 'action settings' you will open an engineering discussion regarding efficiencies of port design, flow paths, orifices in series, etc. I don't have data to back up statements I may make, so I'm going to withhold my comments.

Sorry I can't provide more assistance to help answer your questions. I hope 'not having an answer to these inquiries' isn't hindering your ability to use or service your current RAW's that you own?



Sean

I understand your point and have sent you a private message. 

I can't imagine that if RAW does not discuss these things and assumes these to be business secret then why an other manufacturer can't do reverse engineering and find out all details. 

Looks like obsolete thinking approach of the manufacturer. 

You would remember well how successful was IBM compatible business model while all those who were restricting other manufacturers to copy their products lost a lot of business. 

So all that is old school attitude of the manufacturer which can't help the manufacturer rather it can be damaging I believe. 

Fx gives me each detail. Fredrick and Johan discuss each matter what I want. Further they also accept to try any suggestions which I extend.

That is why fx has become the most innovative manufacturer. 

Regards, 

Umair Bhaur 
 
Mubhaur,

I'm really trying to understand your fixation on this area of the design. Are your guns not shooting well? Maybe both holes the same size hinders accuracy.

If you are trying to get the information for less than honorable reasons shame on you. If not and you feel the need to better the performance of the gun I wish you the best.

Craig

Craig,

I wonder why anyone can question the intentions of others.

Surely I am thousands of KM away from US.

I have to maintain my toys myself further if I want, I have to try to improve my toys as well.

I also want to understand the technicalities of my toys to improve them.

Nothing should be a matter of shame for me out of all this.

I can't worship even the best products. I love RAW but don't put my ego in my toys. I try to understand my toys inside out for improvements.

I hope you understand. 
 
I can understand your confusion to the two different responses you are getting from Fredrick vs Martin-the contrast you describe is significant. I have run into similar differences in interpersonal practices within the office in several companies I have worked for-and I do prefer open lines of communication as opposed to people who hold info close to the vest-but that is just my personal style. I agree that open communication and teamwork can have a synergy for business success within the right setting. However, in an open market, companies also need to protect their design secrets and areas of knowledge that set them apart from competitors in order to stay viable.

Having said that, I also understand and respect people who don’t want to share info freely like I tend to do.

In this case though, we are talking about design features that likely lead to a competitive advantage, and may be part of the reason for RAW’s tremendous success. If those became public knowledge it could be damaging to RAW’s business (Martin still has a tremendous interest in seeing it be successful as I’m sure he’s partial owner still, or something along those lines). I work for a very popular motorcycle manufacturer and we are constantly reminded that information-especially about design or coming product-is to be handled with the utmost confidentiality-and I completely understand that, especially given how competitive the market has become.

The airgun industry is likewise going through a tremendous time of innovation and development-so I completely understand why Martin would want to keep design secrets (proprietary information) from becoming public knowledge. Additionally, I would suspect that he has signed some form of non-disclosure contract with Air Force to protect the proprietary information he surely has so that AF can take over the business and not suffer being undermined by sharing information with other manufacturers.

Lastly, and more pointedly, I personally do not have any further insight into the RAW product design than anyone else-and I actually don’t have any intent or plans to delve into the details either. Airguns are simply one area that I am happy to enjoy just being a participant and helping the community grow together-I actually don’t want to become an expert or hold too much design knowledge (lest this become less 'fun' and more 'work'-I've had that happen when I took photography and made it into a wedding photography business-it totally killed the 'fun' for me, and ruined an excellent hobby). For me, my efforts are going to remain focused on simply learning how to shoot better and understand what is happening with the shot procees, the flight path, the ballistics, etc. I will measure and share ballistics information, or non-proprietary information (stuff that anyone could measure and write about) with the community to help it grow as a community of 'users'. If I am entrusted with confidential design information (and design information goes way beyone gathering measurements on parts), then I will honor that trust that's been shared with me and keep the information private (no offense intended towards you or anyone else on this forum).

So anyway: I apologize if my tone didn't come across correctly-that wasn’t my intent at all. I don’t have any further information or knowledge of the product design to share and honestly, if I did (as stated above), I would keep it quiet anyway to help protect the manufacturer that I have come to appreciate and enjoy-as I want to see them remain viable in the marketplace (selfishly) so I can continue to buy their products down the road. They have filled a niche for me that nobody else has-namely customization of their products to the specs I desire.

I hope this message comes across in the right tone, and we can maintain a positive and constructive tone in this thread-its been a great source of community, knowledge and friendship for many people here.

Sincerely,



Sean
 
Keep them warm Jim. Good luck with the archery hunting.

Craig

Will have to see, my property has the deer(I’m a Doe hunter)it’s just me getting out there in my stand with one of the crossbows and being warm, the blood thinner and cold don’t go hand in hand if ya know what I mean, I think we might hit freezing temps tonight it’s like 36* out now. It’s not a RAW but here is my cold weather Coyote getter that I just bought from a member and kinda put together with a Hiram 4-14x44 FFP scope, UTG tall rings and BKL dove to pic adaptors, MadDog stock and a Hunter Supply LDC. Texan .357. Shooting 127gr FP and 170gr FPs. Just something different to post.

1538191696_5630865585baef150e6c170.17866462_1013F5FB-140F-4761-B0EF-1234595C574B.jpeg

 
I can understand your confusion to the two different responses you are getting from Fredrick vs Martin-the contrast you describe is significant. I have run into similar differences in interpersonal practices within the office in several companies I have worked for-and I do prefer open lines of communication as opposed to people who hold info close to the vest-but that is just my personal style. I agree that open communication and teamwork can have a synergy for business success within the right setting. However, in an open market, companies also need to protect their design secrets and areas of knowledge that set them apart from competitors in order to stay viable.

Having said that, I also understand and respect people who don’t want to share info freely like I tend to do.

In this case though, we are talking about design features that likely lead to a competitive advantage, and may be part of the reason for RAW’s tremendous success. If those became public knowledge it could be damaging to RAW’s business (Martin still has a tremendous interest in seeing it be successful as I’m sure he’s partial owner still, or something along those lines). I work for a very popular motorcycle manufacturer and we are constantly reminded that information-especially about design or coming product-is to be handled with the utmost confidentiality-and I completely understand that, especially given how competitive the market has become.

The airgun industry is likewise going through a tremendous time of innovation and development-so I completely understand why Martin would want to keep design secrets (proprietary information) from becoming public knowledge. Additionally, I would suspect that he has signed some form of non-disclosure contract with Air Force to protect the proprietary information he surely has so that AF can take over the business and not suffer being undermined by sharing information with other manufacturers.

Lastly, and more pointedly, I personally do not have any further insight into the RAW product design than anyone else-and I actually don’t have any intent or plans to delve into the details either. Airguns are simply one area that I am happy to enjoy just being a participant and helping the community grow together-I actually don’t want to become an expert or hold too much design knowledge (lest this become less 'fun' and more 'work'-I've had that happen when I took photography and made it into a wedding photography business-it totally killed the 'fun' for me, and ruined an excellent hobby). For me, my efforts are going to remain focused on simply learning how to shoot better and understand what is happening with the shot procees, the flight path, the ballistics, etc. I will measure and share ballistics information, or non-proprietary information (stuff that anyone could measure and write about) with the community to help it grow as a community of 'users'. If I am entrusted with confidential design information (and design information goes way beyone gathering measurements on parts), then I will honor that trust that's been shared with me and keep the information private (no offense intended towards you or anyone else on this forum).

So anyway: I apologize if my tone didn't come across correctly-that wasn’t my intent at all. I don’t have any further information or knowledge of the product design to share and honestly, if I did (as stated above), I would keep it quiet anyway to help protect the manufacturer that I have come to appreciate and enjoy-as I want to see them remain viable in the marketplace (selfishly) so I can continue to buy their products down the road. They have filled a niche for me that nobody else has-namely customization of their products to the specs I desire.

I hope this message comes across in the right tone, and we can maintain a positive and constructive tone in this thread-its been a great source of community, knowledge and friendship for many people here.

Sincerely,



Sean

Dear Sean,

As far as your views are concerned, those are perfectly acceptable to me. No bad feeling at all.

But I will continue my research since its my right.

I enjoy playing with my guns internally and technically rather than just shooting them even if they are shooting fine.

Everyone may enjoy different activities. 

This is the basic info that I found by Google. 

1538191898_17126427365baef21a6ce285.72789740_Screenshot_20180929-082809_Chrome.jpg

 
If you are just, as you say trying to improve your toys like I said I wish you the best of luck. I merely gave two scenarios as to why the information might be needed. I did not accuse you of anything.

China is thousands of KM away from US also. They would never steal others ideas would they. 

I'm done responding to this conversation. Good luck!

Craig

I respect whatever you say.

Thank you sir.