RAW POI Change After Moderator Is Removed and Reinstalled.

Forums PCP Airguns RAW POI Change After Moderator Is Removed and Reinstalled.

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    DanT55
    Participant
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    So, why are you guys taking this off? Just cause? Did you see a deterioration in accuracy prior to removing? 
    Thanks

    DT

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    Dirte
    Participant
    Member

    “DanT55”So, why are you guys taking this off? Just cause? Did you see a deterioration in accuracy prior to removing? 
    Thanks
    DT

    
To clean out lead dust. It also takes about 10 seconds to remove so it is easy to do.

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    Jlacouturec
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    I have the same rifle and i have done the same thing and my POI still the same!!!

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    bucketboy
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    SMH77

    I thought long and hard about going with the CFOS moderator vs the traditional 'centered' version He also told me there is literally no sound difference between the two designs.

     

    Thats because both are pretty useless, there are other, smaller, lighter and way more efficient moderators available, the RAW mods were amongst the worse I have tested, and for size, there were THE worst.

    I am 99.9% convinced that the carbon sleeve over the barrel does nothing to improve (or reduce accuracy,) cosmetically it is about the ugliest carbon tube I have come across. 

     

    There are a couple of other little issues I have with the RAW but if I were to only have 1 airgun in my collection i would choose the hm1000x without hesitation.

     

    Bb

     

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    Jlacouturec
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    mine changed when i added a ronin suppressor but it was because of the weight…. shifted 1Mrad down @20meters…. 

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    DrPutz
    Participant
    Member

    I have a used third-hand TM1000.  When I touch or move the gun, the POI changes.  This TM1000 has the large diameter carbon fiber shroud that is tensioned.  I also noticed that the POI changed during the shot string (or I was getting flyers).  I have head size-sorted pellet and my AA S510 did not show any flyers (just my technique issues) – BTW the AA outshoots the RAW on benchrest. 

    Has anyone figured out the technique to get consistent POI?  Maybe I need to tighten it a bit more?  I am concerned that all of the bumping and jostling during field target will result in POI changes all day – and consequently poor scores.  Should I sleeve it with a carbon fiber tube and add a slip on TKO instead?  That would certainty be quieter. 

    Thanks!

    Dan

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    bucketboy
    Participant
    Member

    I don’t know why RAW continue with their moderator/shroud design, not only does in look nasty, it doesn’t work very well, it’s heavy and the fact that the carbon is in compression and the barrel under tension IMO can cause accuracy issues. I have tuned numerous RAW,s, without exception all have been improved by removing the mod/shroud and fitting a new one.

    I think the RAW is a fabulous airgun, the mod/shroud is utter garbage.

     

    Here is a Tm1000 I built for a customer, he wanted a large dia shroud (not to my taste but then it’s not my gun)  not only is this gun Uber quiet,  its silly accurate and the shroud weighs less too!

     

    Bb

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    DrPutz
    Participant
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    BB – I tried shooting it without the shroud and the accuracy was better.  The wind was up, so not a great test, but less flyers.  But it was loud.  I could not figure out a way to put the shroud on without "tensioning" the barrel.  I think when the shot is fired the shroud is pressurized, which tensions the barrel further – potentially changing the POI.

    What do you recommend to do to the barrel?  I was thinking of maybe getting a TJ Barrel and having it fit to the RAW – shouldn't be too hard/expensive??  I was thinking about getting a longer barrel to maybe help in accuracy. 

    I also acquired a a RAW 357, but it will only do 760 fps with 81 gr JSBs.  It is also super loud, as the previous owner ported the "moderator" I was hoping to set it up for big bore bench rest given the awesome trigger, but at 760fps I think that it is too slow.  I was also thinking of a longer TJ barrel for that as well.

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    bucketboy
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    DrPutz

    BB – I tried shooting it without the shroud and the accuracy was better.  The wind was up, so not a great test, but less flyers.  But it was loud.  I could not figure out a way to put the shroud on without "tensioning" the barrel.  I think when the shot is fired the shroud is pressurized, which tensions the barrel further – potentially changing the POI.

    What do you recommend to do to the barrel?  I was thinking of maybe getting a TJ Barrel and having it fit to the RAW – shouldn't be too hard/expensive??  I was thinking about getting a longer barrel to maybe help in accuracy. 

    I also acquired a a RAW 357, but it will only do 760 fps with 81 gr JSBs.  It is also super loud, as the previous owner ported the "moderator" I was hoping to set it up for big bore bench rest given the awesome trigger, but at 760fps I think that it is too slow.  I was also thinking of a longer TJ barrel for that as well.

    I have said it many times, if I were to only have one gun it would be a RAW, as much as I like them, I hate the shroud and moderator assembly, not only are they useless at moderating the noise, they can cause all sorts of accuracy issues.  I don’t think the pressure cause the shroud to tension the barrel as the pellet should be long gone before that happens, I think the problem is poor alignment, if the pellet does not pass directly through the centre of the baffles it causes uneven pressure on either side of the pellet. Stick a piece of tape over the endcap, take a shot see if the exit holes line up. Better still, throw the mod in the bin and get a custom jobbie made.

     

    RAW barrels are generally pretty good, sometimes the crown may not be perfect check that out with a magnifying glass. Longer barrels aren’t more accurate they just give more speed.

     

    as for the 357, yes it will be loud, it uses a lot of air to push one of those 81grn lumps, any mod it going to struggle with that. To get maximum power  you will need a high reg pressure, short hammer pip, heavy hammer spring, heavy spring sping guide,  I maxed out a .357 RAW at 960fps, it blew my chrono half way down the garden and woke my neighbour…….and he has been dead for 15 years. 😧 

     

    Bb

     

     

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    elh0102
    Participant
    Member

    Totally normal for POI to change after any changes with moderator. The only rifle I have that seems immune from it, is my Taipan Veteran. It has so much barrel support, removing and replacing the shroud and/or the additional Donny silencer, seems to have little or no effect. Its design flys in the face of the advantage of a free floating  barrel…..whatever works, and that bullpup is very accurate. 

    I disagree about the RAW moderator being ineffective. It might not be the  best, but a few shots without it convinced me it works. Mine is the HM. If I were setting up a TM for BR or FT, I would probably opt for a plain or compensated barrel, just to have one less variable in the mix.

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    DrPutz
    Participant
    Member

    I don’t think the pressure cause the shroud to tension the barrel as the pellet should be long gone before that happens,

    I am thinking that the shroud pressure might cause the shroud to shift/barrel to move for the next pellet. That might explain the shift of pellets over time.

    For the 177: I will give the tape a try to see where the alignment is.  As for resolution, should I just remove the stripper and shroud, glue a carbon fiber tube on the barrel (for looks and rust prevention) and add a slip on moderator?  Alternatively the silver finish is not bad, just a bit stained around the stripper from the epoxy used – I might be able to touch it up and add a clear coat.

    For the 357:  The regulator was set at 162 bar (according to the bestfittings regulator testor), but the hammer spring was short and a bit bent (ala HW springers).  I did not see a hammer spring guide – the hammer spring was short, so not sure where one would fit.  I was hoping to get the noise down from "waking the dead" to "shooting out of the garage" friendly.  The FX Crown I tried in 30 cal was doing about 830 fps with 50 gr JSB – with the stock shroud, the sound was not too bad.  Maybe a longer barrel would help with that as well.  Any tuning tips?

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    bucketboy
    Participant
    Member

    DrPutz

    I don’t think the pressure cause the shroud to tension the barrel as the pellet should be long gone before that happens,

    I am thinking that the shroud pressure might cause the shroud to shift/barrel to move for the next pellet. That might explain the shift of pellets over time.

     

    For the 357:  The regulator was set at 162 bar (according to the bestfittings regulator testor), but the hammer spring was short and a bit bent (ala HW springers).  I did not see a hammer spring guide – the hammer spring was short, so not sure where one would fit.  I was hoping to get the noise down from "waking the dead" to "shooting out of the garage" friendly.  The FX Crown I tried in 30 cal was doing about 830 fps with 50 gr JSB – with the stock shroud, the sound was not too bad.  Maybe a longer barrel would help with that as well.  Any tuning tips?

    I see what you are saying about the next shot being affect by the previous shots pressure. Unfortunately I can’t think of a cure at the moment let me think about that. 

    If you are shooting .177 be mindful of the speed, I have tested loads of barrel with various pellets and have yet to find any that shoot well at high velocity, I shot 8.4grn pellets between 780-800, 10grn  between 800-840 and I don’t bother with anything heavier as I am only shooting at paper and tin with .177 so power is not needed, 

    I will pm you about the 9mm

     

    Bb

     

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    mubhaur
    Participant
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    bucketboy

    DrPutz

    I don’t think the pressure cause the shroud to tension the barrel as the pellet should be long gone before that happens,

    I am thinking that the shroud pressure might cause the shroud to shift/barrel to move for the next pellet. That might explain the shift of pellets over time.

     

    For the 357:  The regulator was set at 162 bar (according to the bestfittings regulator testor), but the hammer spring was short and a bit bent (ala HW springers).  I did not see a hammer spring guide – the hammer spring was short, so not sure where one would fit.  I was hoping to get the noise down from "waking the dead" to "shooting out of the garage" friendly.  The FX Crown I tried in 30 cal was doing about 830 fps with 50 gr JSB – with the stock shroud, the sound was not too bad.  Maybe a longer barrel would help with that as well.  Any tuning tips?

    I see what you are saying about the next shot being affect by the previous shots pressure. Unfortunately I can’t think of a cure at the moment let me think about that. 

    If you are shooting .177 be mindful of the speed, I have tested loads of barrel with various pellets and have yet to find any that shoot well at high velocity, I shot 8.4grn pellets between 780-800, 10grn  between 800-840 and I don’t bother with anything heavier as I am only shooting at paper and tin with .177 so power is not needed, 

    I will pm you about the 9mm

     

    Bb

     

    My after market shroud cum LDC holds zero very well and very nominal change in POI if any.

    That is why I removed the original ones from both my RAW HM1000X and installed my own.

    Umair 

     

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    DrPutz
    Participant
    Member

    BB, I think that there are two hints in your posting for the 177: 1) I will try dropping the velocity a tad – either through heavier pellets (13.43's) or reducing hammer spring.  That might get rid of some of the other flyers.  2) Maybe the shroud needs to be vented in the back with some material to slow the velocity a bit.  That could avoid over pressuring the large diameter shroud causing POI shifts.  I will try #1 first then #2, before going to my own version of a moderator

    Thanks!

    Dan

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    bucketboy
    Participant
    Member

    DrPutz

    BB, I think that there are two hints in your posting for the 177: 1) I will try dropping the velocity a tad – either through heavier pellets (13.43's) or reducing hammer spring.  That might get rid of some of the other flyers.  2) Maybe the shroud needs to be vented in the back with some material to slow the velocity a bit.  That could avoid over pressuring the large diameter shroud causing POI shifts.  I will try #1 first then #2, before going to my own version of a moderator

    Thanks!

    Dan

    For .177 your reg wants to be 1450-1500psi, the hammer pip length 17mm, barrel port 2.8-3.0mm, spring length 55mm, spring gauge 1.35mm.

    shooting .177 pellets between  780-850fps you should be able to get ES around 10fps, SD. low single figures, 200+ shoots per fill and with a bit of work to the moderator it should be almost silent.

    personally, I would much rather hit a target with 12fpe than miss with 20fpe. 
     

    this is part of a message I received from a customer after I tuned his RAW TM 1000

     

     


     

    Bb

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