Posting your "magic" group
- Thread starter Centercut
- Start date
@campfussell This ones for you Fuss. Shot six 5 shot groups at 110 yards, wind 6 to 7 mph from my 10 to 11 o’clock, .22 EDgun R3 Long, NSA 20.2 grain HP DB slugs at 965 FPS. Here are the two best groups, and a third was right at one inch, the other three groups were between 1 and 1.5 inches. Best group below is 5/8 inch. I could have stopped after 4 shots with a 5/16 inch group, but 5 shot minimum is the current standard.
The second best group of the day at 110 yards is 13/16 inch. I’ve decided to do all my practice for the coming competition season at 110 yards. I figure if I can shoot competitive groups and scores at 110 yards then it’ll be easier at 100 yards. FYI, the calculated BC for these NSA slugs (done today) is 0.0735. That is for the .217 caliber 20.2 grain NSA HP DB at 965 FPS and 110 yards.
The second best group of the day at 110 yards is 13/16 inch. I’ve decided to do all my practice for the coming competition season at 110 yards. I figure if I can shoot competitive groups and scores at 110 yards then it’ll be easier at 100 yards. FYI, the calculated BC for these NSA slugs (done today) is 0.0735. That is for the .217 caliber 20.2 grain NSA HP DB at 965 FPS and 110 yards.
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A couple more groups today. Light breeze. 110 yards. EDGun R3 Long. NSA 20.2 grain HP DB slugs at 975 FPS. For reference, a quarter is 0.955 inches and MOA at 110 yards is approx 1.15 inches. Both groups are smaller C2C than the quarter. First group is 6 shots, second is 7 shots. I initially did 5 shots and kept going until one shot wasn’t “tight”. Both groups the low shots were 6th, or 6th and 7th. Five shot groups would have been just over 3/4 inch.
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Our club used to shoot airgun benchrest matches at 50 yards for group for many years. After months of trials, beginning with ten shot groups, then down to five shot groups, we finally settled on three shot groups, BUT, we fired THIRTY three shot groups per match, then measured all the groups ctc, with the winner having the best aggregate.
The REASON for three shot groups was the difficulty in easily determining how many shots were really in a group when measuring them. See, with tight clusters, its not easy to tell. Yes, we DID use backers for awhile, and they do work, but its a pain to use em, and keep them changed, so we eventually found its darned rare that a three shot group is confused with one or two shots.
Typical decent sporting airguns deliver around .75"-1.00" thirty group (90 shot) aggregates with decent ammo off the bench. Good tuned sporting, or FT competition type airguns give .5-.75 aggregates. Really well sorted dedicated benchrest rigs give .35"-.5" aggregates. We found .22 cal rifles shooting around 30fpe generally the best, with the record setting guns here in Temecula over a several year period being USFT rifles using sorted .22 JSB pellets and Benchmark 2 groove barrels. The record aggregate was a bit under 0.34" for the thirty three shot groups, with many groups under 1/16" ctc.
When we began to shoot the International target (one shot per bull) we stopped group shooting competition, and, I suspect, have likely lost some of the knack of it. It took better eyes and skill to accurately measure all those groups than it does the 25 meter International cards, so we haven't gone back to the "old game".
Group shooting in competition is different than "Centercut" cites, since one normally "chases shots" to keep the group tight. Our game required at least one shot to touch the black bull, but as with most group shooters, we normally offset the scope zero to avoid obliterating the actual aimpoint, which was typically at six or nine o'clock on the black. Ideally, one or two shots were in the black, but one or more could be in white without penalty. Failure to "anchor" a group to a bull resulted in a 1" penalty added to that group.
In general, if you shoot enough groups so the AVERAGE is good, its impressive, but one TINY group is really not too much rarer than the occasional HUGE group, if you do your part. To prove out a rig, I think ten five shot groups is enough to show potential.
The REASON for three shot groups was the difficulty in easily determining how many shots were really in a group when measuring them. See, with tight clusters, its not easy to tell. Yes, we DID use backers for awhile, and they do work, but its a pain to use em, and keep them changed, so we eventually found its darned rare that a three shot group is confused with one or two shots.
Typical decent sporting airguns deliver around .75"-1.00" thirty group (90 shot) aggregates with decent ammo off the bench. Good tuned sporting, or FT competition type airguns give .5-.75 aggregates. Really well sorted dedicated benchrest rigs give .35"-.5" aggregates. We found .22 cal rifles shooting around 30fpe generally the best, with the record setting guns here in Temecula over a several year period being USFT rifles using sorted .22 JSB pellets and Benchmark 2 groove barrels. The record aggregate was a bit under 0.34" for the thirty three shot groups, with many groups under 1/16" ctc.
When we began to shoot the International target (one shot per bull) we stopped group shooting competition, and, I suspect, have likely lost some of the knack of it. It took better eyes and skill to accurately measure all those groups than it does the 25 meter International cards, so we haven't gone back to the "old game".
Group shooting in competition is different than "Centercut" cites, since one normally "chases shots" to keep the group tight. Our game required at least one shot to touch the black bull, but as with most group shooters, we normally offset the scope zero to avoid obliterating the actual aimpoint, which was typically at six or nine o'clock on the black. Ideally, one or two shots were in the black, but one or more could be in white without penalty. Failure to "anchor" a group to a bull resulted in a 1" penalty added to that group.
In general, if you shoot enough groups so the AVERAGE is good, its impressive, but one TINY group is really not too much rarer than the occasional HUGE group, if you do your part. To prove out a rig, I think ten five shot groups is enough to show potential.
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Mike
Tom B here...
247 Meters 15-18 mph wind? Amazing, why are you experimenting with these distances and excessive wind?
i know there is a good reason..
does this help you for 100y BR?
Tom B here...
247 Meters 15-18 mph wind? Amazing, why are you experimenting with these distances and excessive wind?
i know there is a good reason..
does this help you for 100y BR?
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Tommy, it’s a bad joke. It was intended as a “spoof” on other posts discussing 300+ yard shots in cold blustery conditions hitting 12 ounce coke cans 9 out of 10 times. That is obviously a figment of someone’s imagination... The guys at the club and I (Temecula Airgun Club) were all joking and laughing about those types of posts, and I decided to write a fictional yardage on the target box just to be funny 
The actual distance was about 115 yards in howling winds. 20 shots. No one can group like that at 275 yards in that wind... No one. Sorry about that. One thing to note about shooting and practicing. If you only shoot in calm conditions you’ll never be a good 100Y BR shooter. Calm conditions are only for sighting in and testing. Practice even more on days where the wind seems ridiculous. You’ll be S.O.L. when you shoot in competition if you’re not ready for heavy variable winds. A few of the relays at RMAC last year were just horrible. Not all, some relays were lucky, plus the finals weren’t that bad. The 2nd qualification round where my gun broke, I had about a 14 inch drift right to left at 100 yards with the .30 Bobcat...
One take away from the spoof post above, since the winds were gusting to well over 20 mph, is the vertical dispersion of the shot pattern. Only about 1.5 inches which is very good considering the conditions. I kept my POA the same for all shots despite the varying winds just to test the gun and the vertical dispersion which tells me I have very consistent slug speed and an amazingly good barrel. Oh, and lest I forget, high quality NSA slugs, in this case the .22 caliber 20.2 grain HP DB version.
The actual distance was about 115 yards in howling winds. 20 shots. No one can group like that at 275 yards in that wind... No one. Sorry about that. One thing to note about shooting and practicing. If you only shoot in calm conditions you’ll never be a good 100Y BR shooter. Calm conditions are only for sighting in and testing. Practice even more on days where the wind seems ridiculous. You’ll be S.O.L. when you shoot in competition if you’re not ready for heavy variable winds. A few of the relays at RMAC last year were just horrible. Not all, some relays were lucky, plus the finals weren’t that bad. The 2nd qualification round where my gun broke, I had about a 14 inch drift right to left at 100 yards with the .30 Bobcat...
One take away from the spoof post above, since the winds were gusting to well over 20 mph, is the vertical dispersion of the shot pattern. Only about 1.5 inches which is very good considering the conditions. I kept my POA the same for all shots despite the varying winds just to test the gun and the vertical dispersion which tells me I have very consistent slug speed and an amazingly good barrel. Oh, and lest I forget, high quality NSA slugs, in this case the .22 caliber 20.2 grain HP DB version.
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Not exactly “magic” but a pretty good 100 yard real 5 shot group. .22 EdGun R3 Long with FX Hybrids at 945 FPS MV. The nine ring is 1.2 inch diameter. Was shooting for score with the Bleu Wolf and had shot 4 cards in order 226, 229, 228, and 228. Thought I’d shoot a couple targets with the little Eddy. I’d call that a little over 1/2 inch C2C.
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Here’s a magic group of 5 at 100y. I would guess it’s about .300” ctc....maybe less.
Thomas HP with 22 RD monsters.
Mike
Thomas HP with 22 RD monsters.
Mike
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Nice! Too bad you can’t do that for 25 shots and shoot a perfect card at 100 yards... . I’d love to see a 250 someday.
. I’d love to see a 250 someday. Upvote 0
The real question is....is the first monkey to shoot a 250 the best shooter in the universe....or just a monkey?
Thought provoking, no?
Thought provoking, no?
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I’d have to say he’s the luckiest shooter in the universe that smartly chose an early morning shoot with absolutely no wind. If he shoots it in actual competition in the finals of a major championship then I’d say he’s the best… 
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I guess we will just look for someone to win EBR Pro class twice, first. I guess it’s been going for 9? years or so....and typically the winner of one year is inconsequential and forgotten the next...despite scores of the winners being somewhat similar. Don’t know how much attendance will be this year. I’m told the show will go on no matter what.
Mike
Mike
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That is true to a certain point. No one has won EBR/RMAC/PAC twice. This will be the 10th EBR and it’s going to be bigger than ever! RMAC and PAC are only in their infancy.
One thing to note is that although no one has won twice, the top ten or fifteen always seem to rise near the top. But, you do have to play to say... it’s easy to see the popularity of these events where there are many many more shooters compared to other disciplines, even so called “National” events. You should attend, we’d love to have more shooters of your caliber...
Here’s an idea. Since there wasn’t enough interest this year in a “National” 100Y BR event, why not make the 100Y and 50Y BR Events at EBR the National Champion? This way you’ll get more than ten times the participation that you would have gotten in NM in September. Just a thought..
One thing to note is that although no one has won twice, the top ten or fifteen always seem to rise near the top. But, you do have to play to say... it’s easy to see the popularity of these events where there are many many more shooters compared to other disciplines, even so called “National” events. You should attend, we’d love to have more shooters of your caliber...
Here’s an idea. Since there wasn’t enough interest this year in a “National” 100Y BR event, why not make the 100Y and 50Y BR Events at EBR the National Champion? This way you’ll get more than ten times the participation that you would have gotten in NM in September. Just a thought..
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Mike B and Mike N — you guys are shooting lights out at 100 yards with your respective guns. Nice shooting and I will be rooting for “both” of you at EBR this year. Send the “secret sauce” over the Internet air waves.
Happy Father’s Day.
Happy Father’s Day.
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The actual Nationals was not endorsed by the USARB this year because of the 50y and 100y events I wanted to offer. They don’t care about those events....but they also don’t care to host their own events. I ran the 25m Nationals last year because nobody else was going to do it and I don’t want to see the discipline die because of apathy on the part of the sanctioning body. I hoped adding 50 and 100y...plus some prize would get some appeal.
You keep commenting as if I’m taking a dig at you...when we already agree on the luck factor involved in 100y shooting. As I’ve said many times....I’m not interested in personally putting 110% into something when it cannot overcome the lucky portion of the event. I’m not upset that many guys are willing to do it. if they shot slugs at 100 and 50 and it was single load....I could probably get into that....but I think the popularity of the event would decline. EBR is a Daystate event. When AOA sold FX it was an FX event. I think the last place a manufacturer should be is at the helm of any sport. I actually want nothing to do with running 25m Nats...but nobody else seems to care enough.
Mike
You keep commenting as if I’m taking a dig at you...when we already agree on the luck factor involved in 100y shooting. As I’ve said many times....I’m not interested in personally putting 110% into something when it cannot overcome the lucky portion of the event. I’m not upset that many guys are willing to do it. if they shot slugs at 100 and 50 and it was single load....I could probably get into that....but I think the popularity of the event would decline. EBR is a Daystate event. When AOA sold FX it was an FX event. I think the last place a manufacturer should be is at the helm of any sport. I actually want nothing to do with running 25m Nats...but nobody else seems to care enough.
Mike
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Mike, I had no idea you Hosted, and setup plus ran last year’s National’s, that’s a incredible commitment & responsibility Just to keep the USARB sanctioned events going, it’s unfortunate that the governing body wanted nothing to do with it?! I don’t want the 25m and 50yd National’s to fade away! At this point I’m not sure of a solution? But Hope we will see a resurgence in this discipline?
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