Very good point Mike! I'm glad you brought this to light. Ha, I want to poke my eyes out when I look at my 100Y EBR practice targets, lol.
Azuaro, yeah I believed you but I was wondering if Jiikuu had seen anywhere close to how consistent a good rimfire could do at 100Y. As it seemed he meant a PCP air rifle with slugs could do "anything" a 22rf could do. I must have misunderstood???
Oh, and I think we need to see that Turbo, pics man pics!
I think I saw Linda at the EBR but hadn't met her. Wow she's a great shot!
Fun thread!
Steve:
Long posts and much information is my nature, so let me add another chapter to this .22 Rimfire vs, air discussion...
It is fundamental to understand the purpose for which this cartridge was designed...The .22 RF was introduced back in 1845 as a BLACK POWDER cartridge design for gallery shooting indoors and even though it evolved into smokeless powder with the inherent higher pressures derived from the new propellant, the guns required "reinforced" receivers, cylinders and barrels; the basic profile design of the bullet hasn't changed much since the switch to smokeless but this bullet was never intended for shooting long distances...This cartridge has had some of the most variety iterations: Started as a ball cap then came the BB caps, CB caps (No gun powder - primer ignition gases were the propellant) then short, long, long rifle, WRF, WMR, etc. and all of these came and offered with many bullet alternatives, bullet profiles (hollow, solid, etc) and velocities...
The industry and shooters got it out of the indoor galleries and manufacturers gave it more velocity...But both: gun & ammo manufacturers wanted to keep the prices low so anyone could own/shoot this caliber/gun...Ammo for .22 up to 10 -15 years ago or so when we had the first shortage of ammo in the US was CHEAPER than pellets at today's pricing..I remember buying bricks of 500 rounds of .22 Long Rifle cartridges for $6.00 US back in then late 60's, and at $10.00 and many times for less in the late 90's...In 1998 I used to buy 500 rounds in bulk that came in a box similar to the Kentucky Fried Chicken carton for $5.00 and I bought them at just above $4.00 many times during promotions of the store (Black Sheep in Coeur dÁlene ID)
The .22 RF has a nominal max pressure of 24,000 PSI, but in reality it operates from 8,000 PSI up...The minimum 8000 pressure comes from the minimum PSI required to make sure the lead bullet "expands" and grabs the rifling; the average operating pressure for most standard ammo is around 12-14000 PSI with some other more powerful cartridges using 16,000+...The potential for 24000 PSI is there but it is not really used. Ha!...Tell this to an air gunner!...Tell him that his regulator/gun can shoot at 250-280 BAR (exaggerating) and sell them the gun with the Reg.Pressure gauge indicating 110 BAR...He will crank it up not to 250 but to 300 BAR while sleep walking the very same night he gets the gun!
What I wanted to introduce in this discussion is that an airgun operates from 50 BAR (ISSF 10M guns) to 160-175 BAR (2500 PSI) used in those highly modified guns in the hands of energy/velocity seeking nuts...The average .22 RF operates as said at around 14,000 PSI, but is not limited to operate at 24000 PSI...It is very important to think about this advantage for the RF or limitation for air, depending on which side you are (I am at both, I am impartial)...RF at 24000 PSI has 5 times the power potential vs. air. Let's not discuss what would be required for air operating at 16000 or even 24000 PSI.
Now let's talk about the bullets...I don't see any limitation for an airgun slug to be manufactured with a similar or even higher BC than the average .22 RF bullet, you make a G7 or a closer profile slug with a good sectional density (40 gr. - weight) and you are already there regarding bullet design. Loading the much longer new slug into the breech or into a magazine or the airgun is another story....Lastly, push the slug at 1030 -1080 fps (Average velocity for Lapua and Eley best BR cartridges) and you are NOMINALLY ahead of the game...Note: ELEY Tenex uses 40 grains with a BC of .150 and Lapua Center-X 40 gr. with .132 BC and both cartridges have similar benchrest precision.
Now, there is an issue that is worth mentioning: The .22 RF with its current bullet profile was designed for shooting at 50, not 100 meters...We BR shooters push the envelope to 100 to magnify the errors, if it performs very well at that distance it will be a killer at 50 M and shorter ISSF distances...
G1 and G7 projectiles and for that matter all the G's in between these 2 profiles perform better at LONGER distances than 50 M, at 50 they are not fully stabilized in general but the rimfire bullet is...So when we compare the .22 RF with the .22 Air at 100 M under identical parameters and giving the airgun the advantage of shooting a G1 or G7 slug, we are putting the airgun ahead of the game...Or so we think!
A gun powder cartridge is extremely superior to the current airgun design system in the way the pressure is transmitted to the projectile...Gunpowder ignites primer-detonates powder and produces gases INSIDE the cartridge directly behind the projectile...The gases & pressure produced correspond to the air pressure that leaves the air chamber in the airgun...You will all agree with this...
The originating "disturbances" (vibrations or harmonics as called in this forum) are very different in both systems: The airgun produces them starting with the hammer-valve contact, then at the air cylinder releasing the stored air that passes through the transfer port AT AN ANGLE (Auch!) to enter the barrel and align behing the projectile to propel it; simultaneously and while the pellet is still in the barrel the regulator is being refilled with air coming from the air cylinder, the valve is closing and all of these steps are creating many "Disturbanes" (vibrations) around ALL the areas and single components of the gun, all the way from the tip of the barrel to the recoil pad while THE PELLET IS STILL INSIDE THE BARREL...
HA!, people match reg pressure and hammer strike to pellets and claim "Harmonics Tuning"...When you really harmonically tune a gun you do that but also tune the rest of the components of the gun, a gun in harmony with its disturbances shoots any pellet you throw at it (it is tuned for ANY pellet not just one variety) and also has a very large sweet spot regarding velocities at the same reg. pressure and without varying dwell, you just adjust your hammer strike...As an example: You can set the gun to shoot JSB 10.3's at 800 fps but it will shoot them with identical precision from 765 to 830 fps. by just adjusting your hammer strike or you could change to Barracudas 10.5's and will keep its precision...The only limitation is that pellets have to shoot well, "garbage in garbage out" if the pellets design is not right we can't expect them to shoot well even on a well tuned gun.
The rimfire gets the same "disturbances" starting with the hammer-rim contact and from there on, everything happens inside the barrel (primmer ignition, powder detonation, raising pressure and propulsion)...Both systems transmit their disturbances or vibrations to ALL the components of the gun one way or another but let me ask you which system will be more precise given the possibilities/means to controlling and diminishing those disturbances?....Ladies and Gentlemen: The winner is.......THE RIMFIRE of course!...
Give me an airgun system that contains the air pressure and discharges its pressure in a LINEAR direction immediately just behind the pellet, and add a sub-system that delays the re-filling pressure for the regulator until the pellet has left the barrel. or give me an airgun that uses air cartridges (I've seen Old West pellet revolvers using pre-charged air cartridges- UK Design) and then both systems are comparable...Add the advantages mentioned for the G7 slug and then you have an airgun winner...
Will a G7 or similar G profile that results with a better BC than the current .22 RF bullet be sufficient to counteract its disadvantages mentioned above (air)?...Well, all I can assure you is that at 50 M it wont, the RF will win every rime, but at 100 M I will need to see the TESTING, I really don't know...The way I work given my background is that the only FACTS I call FACTS are
PROVEN SCIENCE FACTS, many people call facts "their facts" or what they believe it is, or what were told that are facts and they believed the person who told them...Nevertheless, most science thesis are " Discrete" vs "Dynamic" and this is where TESTING and R&D enter in action and are mandatory...
If we apply what has been said up to here, we then can understand why is it that air can beat gunpowder IN PAPER (all theories discussed and other) but this doesn't happen in the real world AS WE SPEAK given the parameters we have considered, but it may happen if air overcomes the disadvantages discussed...
Lastly, we are comparing 2 different systems: One is MODULAR and the other is INTEGRAL, air has the modular advantage of easily changing projectiles, RF being integral is not that easy, but RF manufacturers are not interested in a .22 modular where bullets can be changed nor reloaded with custom components and are neither interested is improving an obsolete cartridge to perform with more aerodynamic projectiles, for that the companies design/produce new more advanced cartridges like the 17 RF or the 5MM Rimfire...Rimfire is not a technology that goes 100% along with precision, but with the right combination of gun design and cartridge, the the old .22 RF can give many cartridges a run for their money.
Now, if we want to even complicate matters worse, how about using.22 RF blanks to propel a G7 projectile, or remove the bullets from the RF cartridge ans test with different powders for shooting G7 projectiles?
...Shut up AZ!
Did I confuse the audience more or what do members reading these epistles of mine think about what has been said/discussed?
Best regards,
AZ
The funny part is that I’ve been to all the major 100 yard BR tournaments over the past two years and NO ONE has shot inside MOA at 100 yards in competition. Not a single person, out of hundreds. Best, most tuned Airguns in the world, with the best shooters, and not one inside an MOA at 100 yards. Things that make you go hmmm... I haven’t seen any keyboards on the benches, maybe that’s the problem. 
my eye hearing hurts.
