NSA, rat sniper or fx?

Forums Pellets, Projectiles, Slugs, & Ammo NSA, rat sniper or fx?

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    Jlacouturec
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    I follow GTA for a while now, and a few years back I remember this post:

    https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=103233.0

    Basically what I can see here is that Nick Nielsen (NSA) invented the Hybrid Slugs 4 years ago, I might be wrong. So I am confuse know, NSA?, RatSniper? or FX?

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    edosan
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    Interesting, I consider NSA the Father of the Slugs and FX the one that took slugs to everyone willing to shoot them.

    I have shoot both and are great!  (I believe Rat Sniper and Fx are the same) Still I like to shoot heavier ones ;) 

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    Fire_at_will
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    Rat sniper made the first Hybrid slugs. He is now making them for FX.

    Nick is a pioneer in the slug market, but not for hybrids.

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    edosan
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    Fire_at_will

    Rat sniper made the first Hybrid slugs. He is now making them for FX.

    Nick is a pioneer in the slug market, but not for hybrids.

    Might be but if you pay close attention to the GTA link @jlacouturec those look pretty similar to the FXs Hybrids and from 4 years ago (just reading that now, the whole first page)
     

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by edosan.
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    Jlacouturec
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    edosan

    Fire_at_will

    Rat sniper made the first Hybrid slugs. He is now making them for FX.

    Nick is a pioneer in the slug market, but not for hybrids.

    Might be but if you pay close attention to the GTA link @jlacouturec those look pretty similar to the FXs Hybrids and from 4 years ago (just reading that now)
     

    4 years ago, also 22.5gr hybrid slugs and now fx is waiting for a patent???? Don’t understand……

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    Fire_at_will
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    I see no picture in the link. Can you paste them over?

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    Fire_at_will
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    Jlacouturec

    edosan

    Fire_at_will

    Rat sniper made the first Hybrid slugs. He is now making them for FX.

    Nick is a pioneer in the slug market, but not for hybrids.

    Might be but if you pay close attention to the GTA link @jlacouturec those look pretty similar to the FXs Hybrids and from 4 years ago (just reading that now)
     

    4 years ago, also 22.5gr hybrid slugs and now fx is waiting for a patent???? Don’t understand……

    What's the difference to you?

    Nick makes the slugs he wants to make, Fx makes the ones they want to, and you buy the ones you want.

    I don't think you understand what a "hybrid" slug is. Its a cross between a pellet and a slug. Nicks slugs are just hollow point slugs with various bases.

     

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    lenweber2
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    Agree, both have brought slugs to the air gun community. But powder burners have used slugs in rifle and pistol application's for a150 years and if you search I think you will find many similarities in design to these newer slugs. 

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by lenweber2.
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    Jlacouturec
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    The point is that if fx is asking for a patent, only fx can produce hybrid slugs

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    Jlacouturec
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    edosan
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    I am new making my own slugs and now I understand a bit more on making them. What I figure from GTA page, is that NSA was making that slug in 2 steps.

    1- He makes with 1 die a "tube" with a base

    2- He makes with another die the tip

    So it is a double press (slower to make) and if you understand the process, is not just a hollow point. 

    Not a clue how FX Slugs are made, but probably is similar to that. 

    NSA will probably make those again … with FX consequences? (meaning legal actions), hope not .

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by edosan.
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    Maineiac
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    Jlacouturec

    The point is that if fx is asking for a patent, only fx can produce hybrid slugs

    I don’t believe that’s how patents work. FX can’t patent the idea of a hybrid slug if it was already being produced but what they can patent is their specific design and/or manufacturing process.

    Someone else could make a hybrid slug it would just be a little different. Kind of like how many companies produce diabolo pellets that are slightly different but all still mostly the same. I actually hope someone does this to spur competition to bring down costs.

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    Jlacouturec
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    My question is: ¿are those NSA 22.5gr slugs (4 years ago post) the same as the new fx hybrids?

     

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    stoti
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    MIchael at Rat Sniper has the patent and is working with FX and a bullet manufacturer to mass produce them.

    Stoti

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    biohazardman
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    jlacouturec

    My question is: ¿are those NSA 22.5gr slugs (4 years ago post) the same as the new fx hybrids?

     

    No, they are not.  But they are similar.

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    jps2486
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    JSB.

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    IraLite
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    Griffin slugs on ebay makes slugs similar to the rat snipers, hollow base and a few larger cavity 2 stage hollow tips.

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    edosan
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    IraLite

    Griffin slugs on ebay makes slugs similar to the rat snipers, hollow base and a few larger cavity 2 stage hollow tips.

    Those look nice! huge hollow base!  

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    Airgun-hobbyist
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    Those look nice! huge hollow base!  

    @edosan Did you make those?  They look like they will do the job well and fly nicely getting there!

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    nielsenammo
    Manufacturer
    Manufacturer

    I will make one simple post to address this.  I knew at some point this would be an issue.  I received a link to this post last night and knew after receiving it, it would not be long before it hit Facebook or a forum.

    What FX has branded as a "hybrid" slug is not new to airguns and when I first started in 2015 I made my slugs in the same way however I was making big bore slugs in the very beginning and then moved into small bore slugs towards the end of 2015.  I made these slugs using a two step process where you make the hollow point with no nose formed, only straight walled.  Then in a second die operation you close the nose inward into the shape of the final slug.  This is what makes the larger cavity in the middle and then shaped like the final slug in the second die.  This process of making a hollow point is what makes it a "hybrid", not the base.  I had different bases, flat, cup, hollow base.  The base is no issue to make, they can be changed out in two minutes to make a different base shape.  What make it hard to make is the hollow point.

    Michael was also making slugs like this back in 2014 in 25 caliber only.  Not that it matters but I made these type of slugs in 177, 22, 30 and in big bores before Mike had equipment to make other calibers.  However, Mike made them in 25 caliber before I made them in any caliber.  We both bought dies from Corbin who already had this process.  Neither one of us invented this process.  When you call Corbin and ask to make hollow points he will ask you if you want to make them with a point forming die after bleeding off the lead *two dies) or if you want to make a one step synchronized pin hollow point (one die).

    Advantages to both.  A two step is harder to produce because it takes two steps.  It has an advantage that you can make a slug the same length but have that slug lighter.  This does reduce the BC compared to the same slug that is not hollowed out.  The advantage of the synchronized hollow point pin is that you can make the HP in one die, so much quicker to produce.  However the tooling is much more expensive and delicate.  

    Since back in 2016 I was making these by hand I chose to convert my slugs all to the single step HP so I could bring my price point down.  This meant I gave up making the hybrid style slugs I was making to go with a slug that would reduce costs.  I am a business man on top of being a shooter and I made the gamble that people would buy more slugs if they were cheaper.  I believe I made the right decision at the time.

    In regards to a patent claim, that is never going happen.  The process in which we use to make hybrid slug is something that has been around for decades and was not invented by Mike or me.  We both learned about this process because Dave Corbin taught us.  I don't think even Dave is the founder of this process.  This is how jacket hollow points are made.  This is old technology being used in air guns.  It is only new to most airgunners who don't realize this is an industry standard way to make hollow points in the firearms world for jacket bullets.. Mike has been making them since 2014 and I made my first one in like January or February of 2015  in big bore slugs before I knew who Mike was.  Both of us bought our tooling and learned to make them from Corbin.

    As far a a patent claim, this comes from Mike and not FX.  The process is not invented by any of us and has been commercially available for decades.  As far a shape of the slug, this shape is standard off the shelf from Corbin with maybe some small tweak we all put on our slugs.  In the United States you have one year from your first sale to apply for patent, if you do not apply you have lost your chance to get patent.  Mike has been selling since 2014 and me since 2015 so neither us could qualify for patent if we wanted to.  But neither of us invented this anyway so it does not matter.  If you lie on your patent application and they grant a patent because you got it through, when you try to defend your patent and the defendant shows proof of previous sales more than one year of the application and or showing proof you sold the same or similar product prior to the application the lawsuit will be dropped and no patent protection will be granted.

    I do not plan on any elaboration on the subject.  I hope this clears up any rumors, I have already received many emails about it and thought I needed to address it before it got out of hand.

    Bottom line is we should be happy FX has brought back this product and made it commercially available.  They are a good slug design and have a place in the market but will also cost more because they are much harder and more expensive to produce.  It is nice to have a variety of slugs to shoot and choose from and different price points to allow as many people as possible to get into slug shooting.  Also keep in mind I stopped making hybrids because at the time I did it all by hand and did not have high speed equipment to make them.  Looking forward to see what 2020 brings.

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