New Video: AirForce AirGuns .25 Caliber Slug Challenge Rematch with AirGunDepot

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UpNorthAirGunner

UpNorthAirGunner

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Oct 19, 2017
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MI, United States
Last summer AirGunDepot.com did a great head to head challenge to see what .25 PCP air rifles could sling a 49 grain Hunters Supply slug with the most accuracy and most foot pounds of energy. The Sumatra 2500 came out on top - but I immediately called for a rematch using the full sized Condor with 24 inch barrel vs. the SS version they used in this challenge. When AirForce announced at ShotShow 2018 their new Ring-Loc High Flow valve for the Condor - I knew it was time to revisit this and do my own rematch. Here are my results:
 
I was impressed by the power & accuracy of the Sumatra. Even though I'm fully aware of its power that video comparison left me with the "wow" factor. Just grabbed gun off the shelf and it shot for power & accuracy.

Your gun didn't provide that same "wow" because you had to modify it not just shoot it in its off the shelf form. That and not showing your high power group, Sumatra still wins?
 
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"kkarmical"I was impressed by the power & accuracy of the Sumatra. Even though I'm fully aware of its power that video comparison left me with the "wow" factor. Just grabbed gun off the shelf and it shot for power & accuracy.
Your gun didn't provide that same "wow" because you had to modify it not just shoot it in its off the shelf form. That and not showing your high power group, Sumatra still wins
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I don't think I was clear in this video about the point I am trying to make. This set up you see in the video is a STOCK CONDOR .25 configuration. See here: http://www.airforceairguns.com/The-Condor-By-AirForce-Airguns-s/39.htm

The full sized Condor as compared to the SS version has the 24 inch barrel with Ring-Loc system which gives this rifle more power and the same accuracy as the Sumatra 2500 as demonstrated in the AGD video. I guess I wasn't clear about that since I took my stock Talon SS and turned it into a stock Condor configuration for demonstration purposes. I should have shown the high power group as it only opened up to 1.25 inch groups right on par with the demonstrated group in the AGD with the Sumatra. I also should have shown the FPS / FPE at the medium power of 6 which was giving me 950-915 FPS which is EXACTLY the power of the Sumatra 2500. 

So the point is this - the stock full sized AirForce Condor (the Ring Loc valve now comes with this gun right out of the box) with the stock 24 inch barrel at medium power is the EXACT same accuracy and power as the Sumatra 2500, but has another 6 powerwheel settings you can move it up to to give it even more power than the Sumatra 2500 can muster. So sorry - the Condor takes this one. ???

Don't get me wrong - the Sumatra 2500 is a powerful and accurate gun - just not as powerful and accurate as the AirForce Condor with Ring-Loc valve. Why that is important is that these were 49 grain slugs being tested in these videos and based on my calculations of the spin rate for the AirForce .25 is that a slug up to around 65 grains should be able to be stabilized. That test is coming next.
 
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"Kyler"
"2D1C"Group size at high speed was?
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agree. the challenge was which gun is best for that slug. I would think accuracy is part of the criteia
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Did you not watch the video? That group was better than the Sumatra's and the AirForce makes more power. Even at the highest power the group was on par with the Sumatra's as demonstrated by AGD.
 
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Its a good video UNAG, I like both rifles. Personally I would go for the Sumatra, with it actually having a magazine and the fact that the 49gr bullets actually fit the mags I think too that's amazing. Sumatra is probably the most underrated gun out there right now, AirForce is making incrimental gains in the industry but they don't change much, a new caliber each year. They need to come out with some new designs, all their guns have looked the same for years and the fact that they refuse to make a magazine is probably hurting their sales. 

That said If someone gave me a Condor I'm sure I would love it, if I had 1000$ to spend on a hammer of a .25 I would buy the Sumatra. I think as far as accuracy and power goes I think your video does the AF justice, looking forward to seeing further groups at high power.
 
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UpNorthAirgunner, 
You made a good video with the power wheel set at #6 where you said you "got your best accuracy". But then you cranked the power wheel up to #12 and shot over your chronograph but refuse to reveal the group you got at 50 yards at that setting...and furthermore you did not show what velocity you were shooting the first five slugs you shot at the target. The shots at #12 must have yielded a pretty bad group or you would have shown it to us, and the shots you took at #6 must have been at very low velocity without much energy or you certainly would have shown that also. You are only presenting evidence that supports your narrative, otherwise why would you not show us your 50 yard group shot at power setting number 12, and why would you not show us the chrono numbers for the first five shots at power setting #6?

This upsets me because I have owned both the Sumatra 2500 and Airforce Condor in .25 caliber and I can attest to the fact that the Sumatra will out shoot a Condor at full power any day of the week! I once had a Sumatra 2500 tuned to shoot the 49 grain Hunter Supply slugs at 1050 ft/s, and that would give me a perfectly concentric group I could cover with a quarter at 50 yards! Her favorite pellets were the Benjamin Domes... So I vehemently disagree with your conclusion that the Airforce Condor shoots anything better than a Sumatra does, and sincerely hope no one is led away from buying a Sumatra based on your skewed narrative. The Sumatra 2500 is superior to the Condor in every respect in my opinion...and I have owned both.

Will you make an honest video that addresses these important points, or will you continue to ignore the questions and skew the test to fit your conclusion? 

Chuck 
 
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"CHUCK"You are only presenting evidence that supports your narrative, otherwise why would you not show us your 50 yard group shot at power setting number 12, and why would you not show us the chrono numbers for the first five shots at power setting #6?
This upsets me because I have owned both the Sumatra 2500 and Airforce Condor in .25 caliber and I can attest to the fact that the Sumatra will out shoot a Condor at full power any day of the week! 

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Slow your row there Chuck. Its an airgun man. Deep breath. So you made a lot of accusations in this post that are flat out wrong and there is a lot of subjective opinion here to unpack. So we are all on the same page here and look at this demonstration purely objectively... If you like the Sumatra - go buy one. Go buy two of them. It is a great heavy hitting gun. If you are looking for a repeater - it beats the Condor by well.... 100% because the Condor is a single shot rifle and not a repeater. So are we good there before I continue? Good. I will continue.

My point of this video was to show that the original head to head wasn't pitting the most powerful AirForce AirGuns .25 cal Condor option out there against the Sumatra in their selection of the SS which has a 18 inch barrel. If AGD would have used the stock 24 inch barrel in a full sized (non SS) version - that would have given the two guns side by side probably the EXACT same FPS - thus the same FPE. One of the points of this video and most of my other videos is there is a nugget of educational value to be learned. I wanted to show that the velocity difference between an 18 inch barrel and a 24 inch barrel is quite significant. So can you and I agree on that point before I continue? Good. I will continue.

I now have the new Ring-Loc valve which comes stock with the new Condor and takes the rifle (or any other AirForce platform paired with the new valve and bottle ) to an entirely new level. I personally think there is more secret sauce in that valve other than just the changeable top hat. Just a guess though. So all your other comments about my video INTENTIONALLY NOT showing this or that... I was just running as close to the same test as the original AGD video did as an apples to apples demonstration. It sounds like your a Sumatra lover - that is great. We all have our favorites - mine happens to be the AirForce line of rifles. My point was in this video - that the Condor IS the MORE POWERFUL gun and just as accurate at least in my testing.

Accuracy is a fickle thing as you know when it comes to slugs in PCPs - to say the Sumatra will have the same tack driver accuracy at the highest powerwheel setting for any given slug weight is just hogwash. PCPs need to be tuned and dialed in with the optimal PSI and hammer weight for any given slug no matter the make or model. Period. If you really want to start getting into the weeds on this topic - you can get a choked or unchoked version of the Condor 24 inch barrel from Lothar Walther which could even change this head to head even more.

Or we could introduce the fact that most slug shooters out there (like myself) would slug a gun first and then size their bullets to match their exact rifling / bore size before slinging any lead. So there is a lot to this conversation that isn't being covered, but probably should be. I hope you and I are doing that now through this conversation for the benefit of others who are reading this.

So to conclude - I am sorry my video got to you in such a negative way and "upset you". Again - the Sumatra 2500 is a great gun - no one has said it isn't. Thank you for watching!
 
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Chuck - dude! Cease fire man! I am going to entertain this conversation with more more exchange - but man - you gotten simmer down. So I want you to listen to the video again... you'll notice that you don't hear the slugs impacting the pine board backing as I was just taking those velocity reading shots at the powerwheel setting of 12. I wasn't even aiming at the target when I was on 12 while I was recording. So if you want to see that target from when I was shooting on 12 - I'll give you hint: There are zero bullet holes in it. I was just shooting over the Chrony to get my velocitiy readings so to say I am refusing is insinuating I am hiding something. Chill the hell out! Who is this guy anyway? Geez!
 
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Well I have to admit that you did make a really good video...It was very well made and I did like the experiments you did with the Condor and how quiet it was with that moderator...and I even agree that it was unfair for Airgun Depot to compare a Sumatra with a 24" barrel to a Condor with a 20" barrel. I guess I sort of went off the deep end there defending the venerable and much loved Sumatra's...so I apologize if I hurt your feelings.

I think it would be cool if your Airforce Condor had a 480cc carbon fiber air tank, and one of the new regulators, and a barrel with a 1:16" twist rate to shoot the longer pellets like the 43 grain Eun Jins and the 49 grain flat nose slugs from Hunter Supply. And come to think of it, there are a lot of new slugs these days that weren't available back in my Sumatra/Condor days. Good luck with your future modifications on your rifle...makes me want to build another Sumatra all over again but with a Huma regulator and a 700mm Smooth Twist X barrel! 

Best regards, Chuck
 
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"CHUCK"Well I have to admit that you did make a really good video...It was very well made and I did like the experiments you did with the Condor and how quiet it was with that moderator...and I even agree that it was unfair for Airgun Depot to compare a Sumatra with a 24" barrel to a Condor with a 20" barrel. I guess I sort of went off the deep end there defending the venerable and much loved Sumatra's...so I apologize if I hurt your feelings.
I think it would be cool if your Airforce Condor had a 480cc carbon fiber air tank, and one of the new regulators, and a barrel with a 1:16" twist rate to shoot the longer pellets like the 43 grain Eun Jins and the 49 grain flat nose slugs from Hunter Supply. And come to think of it, there are a lot of new slugs these days that weren't available back in my Sumatra/Condor days. Good luck with your future modifications on your rifle...makes me want to build another Sumatra all over again but with a Huma regulator and a 700mm Smooth Twist X barrel! 
Best regards, Chuck
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Its all good Chuck. I get it man. We all get pretty passionate about this stuff. You didn't hurt my feelings - but you were definitely pushing my buttons calling into question my integrity. Definitely crossing some lines - but its all good. ONWARD! So I would go do more video demos based on this stock platform, but I am in the process of taking this stock Talon SS and turning it into a .257. Most everyone goes with a RL or Doug Noble valve, but I'm curious if this new stock AirForce Ring-Loc High Flow valve could push a 85gr. .257 slug. We will see. I have an insanely long barrel coming from TJ Enterprises. It is going to be the same length as my Texan barrels (34 inches), but mounted to a Talon frame. It will be 1:14 twist. Stay tuned.
 
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Well now I am intrigued! One of my unfulfilled dreams is to own a .257 like Tofazfou and be able to hit pop cans at 440 yards! I have been watching his projects for many years now with fascination...nothing like power and super accuracy. It will be interesting to see if the new high flow valve can push the 85 grainers well enough. And I am thrilled to hear you are going to use a barrel from Mike Sayers for your build...and I agree with the 1:14" twist rate you've chosen. And my God...a 34" barrel should give you really good velocity while using much less air to do so than a 24" barrel would. Have you given any thought to regulating this gun?
 
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