New ART barrel from Daystate

Forums General Discussion New ART barrel from Daystate

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    broekzwans
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    I have noticed mostly similar phenomena as Matt has.

    LW is producing barrels at very large quantities which means the tolerances will vary and this is really noticeable in the choke. Their internals are lapped and smooth but the choke can be a pain in the ass. A statement: a good barrel doesn't need an artificial choke! With artificial I mean an extra step in production to create a choke. Keep in mind with what type of metal you're shooting through the barrel and what its properties are while being compressed. Lead is dead metal and will not act as copper when being sized. If you buy a bullet head sizer for copper projectiles the actual hole is always slightly smaller than the size that's mentioned due to what happens right after the sizing.

    The biggest problem at this moment is that pretty much any manufacturer wants to use the maximum length of the barrel and therefore chooses to suffer accuracy over money/profit or they just don't have a clue how a barrel becomes an accurate instrument. Again a nice statement that might cause some controversy: I know a manufacturer just got serious about accuracy when they stop selling barrel length and start listening to the barrels, this also means that pretty much none of the barrels will be identical to the next. A couple of things are very important in barrels that will help to realize it's full potential and as long as you neglect them it's russian roulette / hit or miss. Would you pick an apple from a tree with a wasp- or bees nest nearby and just start biting into it blindly? Would you start looking into it to see if there are things that won't make it pleasant to consume or would you like a 50/50 chance of getting stung in your tongue or worse?

    FX has done a good job by taking matters into their own hands and starting to produce their own barrels and trying to create a uniform barrel to hit the market. As far as I know they're doing a pretty good job at creating a pretty uniform accuracy platform but I don't know what their pass rate on barrels is? No matter what you think about the brand, you can't deny that their barrels perform. BSA also has done this for a long time and they also created very good shooting barrels, especially in the sub 12 ft/lbs scene they still have a huge following that will stand behind their barrels every single day.

    Chokes are an easy way to cover up flaws in the rest of the barrel and create a higher pass rate of accurate barrels if done properly. Like I said, FX has found a way to create uniformly shaped chokes and therefore you get more uniformly performing barrels. Matt also mentions some good ways to make barrels more uniform performers which FX has used.

    There is no way to create a 100% pass rate on barrels since there will always be flaws that sneak in at some point but actually knowing what a barrel needs increases the pass rate significantly! I have learned a lot from buying a barrel that sucked and working on it until it was a good performer. I bought a CZ barrel from a seller from the Czech Republic and it was so tightly chocked that I almost had to use a hammer to get the pellet through the choke, but that wasn't the only flaw. After playing with it and working together with a friend of mine that does the machining (who is at least as ignorant as I am in a good way :P) for almost 3/4 year and doing research of what makes a barrel a good barrel I/we found, if I may say so myself, a big part of the solution and from now on I'm using that information for next barrel purchases (turned out great for my latest 4.5mm LW barrel and my current chokeless .25 LW polygonal barrel).

    By the way, a barrel is not the only one causing flyers, hold is a very important factor in this. I posted a picture a week ago in my instagram page about hold: my page. There is also a picture on there about cleaning that I also posted somewhere over here on the forum. And if you look closely there is also some information about what a barrel should and shouldn't have, i'm not giving out all the information :P

    Don't take the above personal as I know it might hurt some if I tell that manufacturers don't know what they're doing in terms of barrels.. I'm pretty straight forward by nature so it might sound a bit rude ;) It's easy to blame the manufacturer of the barrels when you don't make them yourself, even the most custom barrels will require some work and feeling for using it with lead projectiles.

     

    You started a nice discussion Roger :)

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    nomojo65
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    I do admit that most of the time I’m not nearly as smart as I think I am!!! I try to be objective ( I am human so a little bias sneeks in…plus I have a competitive nature!!!) But in the end I love shooting accurate rifles short or long distances! And my own personal experiences are all I can fall back on! GOOD-BAD, RIGHT or WRONG! But I do know that any competition between manufacturers is USUALLY a WIN for the advancement of the sport and consumer!

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    STO
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    There is another thing worth mentioning here, which is shooting is a head game. I know very few people who can pick up a gun they expect to shoot badly and shoot it well. There is a real and rare talent in that, shooting against your expectations. This is why, if you THINK you have a gun that isn't shooting well for some reason, hand it to a friend who can shoot really well and tell him the gun is shooting lights out. If that friend can make the rifle group, than the problem is what you might call an "operator headspacing issue." 

     

    nomojo65

    I know I’m stepping into a hornets nest… but I have to agree with SPRAY1 on the LW barrel remarks! Barrels don’t throw flyers? (They either shoot or they don’t!) it is usually inconsistent ammunition or non-consistent regulators/velocity or many other variables not related to the barrel specificly, and finding the right pellet,velocity, head dia. Etc. is all part of the game, one barrel isn’t going to shoot every pellet/projectile with the same accuracy! Matt you even eluded to that in your comment about configuring land/groove dimensions for a specific pellet, then the pellet  manufacturer changed head size and fx had to start all over again?, now will agree that stx barrels may shoot a wider array of pellets good? but for pure accuracy my preference is LW or any Other good button/hammer forged/cut rifled barrel. Just shot these out of my 12 groove literally 20min. Ago After work! Note: did not weigh pellets or clean barrel, only premeasured pellet head dia. Also this is a 19ftlb gun not 12ftlb

    This is not a good comparison. A flier is a combination of factors, barrel, pellet, and environment/shooter. Lets exclude the latter though because it is a variable we can't control very well. Group size doesn't grow linearly, your gun doesn't truly have a single angular MOA accuracy. As you go further and further out, even excluding the environmental factors, your groups will grow exponentially. This is why a sub MOA group at 50 yards is easy, but it is much less so at 100 yards, and I have yet to see someone reliably lay down one at 200 yards. Meanwhile at 16 yards (my indoor range) I can put unsorted pellets through the same hole all day long. Matt even pointed this out a few posts up. 

    My point is that showing your group size doesn't change despite pellet head diameter differences at 17 yards is great, but if a smaller than optimal pellet head diameter causes minor bore misalignment, you're probably not going to see it at that range because it will basically behave like a minor change in the pellet's BC and the difference will be negligible. But that minor misalignment which may give you an unnoticeable shift at 17 yards can grow from a into a spiral at 100 yards, and put you off by inches. And as we've discovered by people pushing the distances further and further out, what worked well for decades at close range (fast-twist land and groove rifling) starts to become a liability. Now the industry leaders are moving toward slower twist rates and polygonal bores for their long range guns. 

    I hope that makes sense. :) 

     

    And one more thing I want to point out here quickly, which is the development cycles on these barrels. LW I believe button rifles their polygonal barrels. A tungsten carbide button isn't a cheap piece of tooling to make or modify as you keep fighting your way through different design evolutions. CZ I believe cold hammer forges their barrels, the mandrels for which are even more expensive. Meanwhile FX basically can make a few adjustments to their rifling machine, which squeezes blanks from the outside, and hey-presto have a completely different twist rate, land and groove dimensions, choke, etc. I'm sure it is a bit more challenging than for FX, but clearly the changes are much easier for them and as such we've got a significant and growing array of easy to change barrels, each one specialized for a different application. That is not insignificant. 

     

    Just my take on the subject. Take it for the little it is worth, which is to say nothing because it is the ramblings of a crazy gun on the internet. ;) 

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    Dairyboy
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    Matt_Dubber

    I think that the rifling portion of CZ barrels are excellent – Extremely well made and very smooth. It's the leade, choke and crown that often give problems. 2 of the 4 CZ barrel guns (1 Kalibrgun, 1 Vulcan) had to be sent back before I even reviewed them because I could not get them to group. Maybe I just got two bad barrels out of a hundred, but I am just stating my experience.

    Here's a good video of some close-ups of CZ barrels: 

     

     

     

     

    I appreciate your honesty Matt! That's info I like to hear. I wasn't aware of the bad crowns and leades and is something for me to look at on mine even though they shoot great.

    Like nomojo65 stated regardless of our personal experiences and opinions, what's great is that there's competition between gun makers to make barrels for ultimate accuracy at long range! 

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    broekzwans
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    For long range shooting we definitely need the competition between manufacturers that is rising now :) Both manufacturers and shooters benefit from this. This does mean, however, that both shooters and manufacturers have to do even more to stay on top of their game (also part of the fun :) ). Nothing comes for free, dedication and hard work are required.

    and like @sto said, sometimes you just need to hand the gun to someone else to see if it’s you who is not doing what is needed

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    Franklink
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    Good discussion, but lots of grains of salt. 

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    nomojo65
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    Actually STO, I was trying to point out just the opposite… ( these groups are not even close to being the same! ) even at 17yds the groups open up when you shoot pellets that the bore doesn’t like ie- 4.51 head dia. Will not group well out of this barrel but 4.52 dia. Does, but only with the AA 10.3’s, jsb’s 10.3’s seem to group with head dia. 4.53( now before you blast me that AA & JSB are the same! I know… but this is what I’ve found in this barrel?) I know @ 25m this barrel will not group acceptably for competition(with 4.51 dia. pellets) but this is different than a flyer, maybe my definition of a flyer is different than yours? And I’m fully aware of external environmental factors playing a pivotal role in grouping vs. flyer’s!, and the exponential impact of distance and time in flight these factors impose on any given projectile, including destabilization of projectile do to a to slow or to fast spin rate vs Weight/length fps of projectile especially at longer ranges! I try to remove as many variables as can when testing?, and I shoot ALOT to get a good representation of the capabilities of a specific rifle/barrel/ ammunition combination and this is quite honestly the only way to truly be able to distinguish a flyer from poor hold/bench technique,what the barrel prefers? clean or dirty pellet headsize,not reading conditions properly,etc.etc.etc!

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    Sell682
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    I had a Vulcan where the CZ barrel crown was not up to par. 30 yrd and under it was good but past that groups opened exponentially. I took the barrel to a gunsmith who builds precision rifles for a living and after scoping and reviewing he quickly determined the lands and grooves were centric with bores center and the choke was uniform but the crown required a recut which he did on his lathe and ensured it was centric with the bore via gauges. After this was done he polished the internals and the accuracy past 30yrds to 75 yrds was excellent. 75-100 yrds was also a huge improvement and it then came to the human element (me).

    Really enjoy this thread and one of my favorites on this forum.

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    Spray1Mark
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    Some more testing today, in pretty windy conditions again but it cant be helped! Rogers first group with the 25g Monsters was great, then an even better one followed. He has the pic of that so I am sure he will post it, this is 100 yards dead, so 5 shots below first group.

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    Sell682
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    Impressive , to think we are closing in if not exceeding rimfire accuracy with a PELLET at 100 yrds is exciting. This to me is more influental to our hobby than all the different models that manufacturers pumping out.

    The podium will be the determining factor whether it be FX, Daystate or another manufacturer.

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    Matt_Dubber
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    It’s so exciting to see ALL manufacturers raising their game! Not too long ago a sub MOA group at 100 was an anomaly, but it’s quickly becoming the standard!

    I spoke to some very, very experienced rimfire shooters at IWA who claimed airguns had already overtaken rimfire accuracy – They had shot rimfire slugs out a high power airgun and had achieved superior results. They claimed that the lack of crimping on the bullet, lack of carbon fouling and lack of temperature sensitivity put airguns on top.

    Exciting stuff for sure!

     

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    Laity
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    I actually think that at 100 yards my Red Wolf is more  accurate than my Rimfire , in fact I might try some groups with both to see which is the best .  Might be worth a look . 

     

    Rog 

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    Robransom
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    this was one of the best discussions on Barrels that I've read.  Thanks for all the great information and opinions!

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    BarNone
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    "If it does, then I think the FX and Daystates will be more evenly matched, but ONLY if th quality control issues are resolved. It is clear to me from speaking to many people in the industry that the issue is not so much with barrel profile, but with dud guns that can’t hold a group at all. People are getting tired of new guns being talked up and then performing miserably"

     

     

    From what I have been seeing lately Daystate seems to have really upped their game over the last few years and it has been FX suffering from some quality control issues (hence so many redesigns/updates)

     

     

     

     

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    PumaCarl
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    This thread should be preserved via a "sticky" like done on other websites. Excellent conversation and informative.

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    Tonykarter
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    Yes, agreed.  Best barrel thread I have ever read.  Thank you for investing your time and knowledge everyone. 

     

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    Oregun
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    Yep, best thread in quit some time,  Bookmarked.  

    There's no substitute for knowledge.  

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    Laity
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    So just an update on the gun, Its working brilliantly and a joy to shoot . No problems what so ever . The only thing I did was clean it as said and that was a mistake . Now she is leaded up again she is bang on .  Groups at 100 yards seem to be getting getter , Oddly enough she liked 34' grain JSB/s but changed her mind and really only likes the 25's re designed which is fine . I will be trying more pellets to see if there is anything else out there worth looking at . I have adjusted my hold some what to make the groups better , That seems to have worked too . 

     

    I really love this gun ,  it makes me smile every time I use it . Its just such a wonderful bit of kit . Soon be out hunting with it again to see what she can do .

     

     

    Rog

     

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    txebos
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      Hi from Spain.
    Sorry for my English is not as good as I'd like …
    I love this forum and
    thanks for the contributions you are making, I am enjoying them.                                                                                   I am very interested in everything that is being contributed in this post.
    but I have a doubt, I do not know if someone could help me.
    Previously it has been spoken of that LW when raising the power of the carbines has lowered the twist of barrels maintaining the rate of rotation of pellet (rpm)
    The questions are :
    knowing that the shape and weight of the pellets is different and depending on these data use a twist, what is the ideal pellet rotation rate? Is there a minimum value – maximum for it?
    Are these values respected when choosing the appropriate twist for each caliber?

     

    Thanks .

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by txebos.
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