My thoughts and outlook on shooting, shot groups, and other stuff

Forums General Discussion My thoughts and outlook on shooting, shot groups, and other stuff

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    blackdiesel
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    Just a few things that I have determined to work best for me.  I’m sure you guys might have different outlooks so just feel free to share yours.

    First up is shooting:  When I first got into PCPs I did all my shooting sitting at a table using sandbags or a front rest.  I got pretty good at it too.  But the first time I went hunting I noticed my shots hit at a different POI from where they hit from my zero.  And it was way off – like 2 inches.  So now I shoot 99% standing from a Caldwell Magnum Fieldpod.  This simulates hunting conditions in the field a lot better.

    Next up Shot groups:  A lot of people feel that 5 to 10 shots best show the accuracy of the gun.  I’m different, I believe that 3 shots will do the trick.  Me personally, I can hold my technique and concentration for 3 shots no problem.  Afterwards, if a shot strays, more than likely it’s me the shooter.  I know when I pull a shot so for me anything after 3 shots I’m more prone to throw a shot. 

    High end scopes and PCPs.  For scopes I don’t need a high dollar model.  I don’t need a scope with precise tracking because i use holdover/under all the time.  As long as the scope is clear out to 150-200 yards and hold zero – I’m good.  I don’t need to range targets with a scope – that’s what I have a laser range-finder for.  This is for airguns – I do use tracking and turret adjustments for powder burners.  High end PCPs are great and make shooting easier.  The fit and finish are great and all that stuff.  However, for me personally, as long as a PCP will do 1/2″ at 50 yards and 1 inch at 100 yards, that’s pretty much the standard.  With my high end guns I can do this easier and with less concentration, but ultimately, I shoot the same sized groups with just about all my guns.  A good friend of mine like to say, “show me something I can’t hit with a Leapers scope and regular PCP that I can hit with an expensive scope and expensive gun and I will get an expensive scope and gun.”  That pretty much sums up my outlook too.

     

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    Imold
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    I hear what your saying and being that you brought this up my wife asked what I wanted for Christmas and I showed her a MTM Portable shooting bench that’s on a bi-pod so I can shoot more from a standing position, it adjusts from 20” to 60” and gets me off the bench, anyway im trying to keep all my scopes in the 100 – 350 range for my airguns now, matter of fact I just decided to go with a 6-24×50 crossfire on my soon to be HMx 357, found one for just over 200 bucks and then I’m putting my Leupold and Vortex Viper back on my Powder Burners and that leaves me with one extra scope a Hawke 4-16×44 that I’ll use on my next HMx in .25 when I order it, I’ve decided that I don’t need overly expensive scopes to shoot airguns the way I do, as long as I can get on target and they hold zero I’ll be ok. As far as always shooting from the bench it’s good and bad, bad if your a hunter because your not getting enough offhand practice so standing and shooting is a good thing to do and then there is paper punching in which I do very little of it, the only reason I shoot paper is to zero in a weapon, I mainly shoot metal targets and those smaller metal reset targets when I’m at the range and this is why I don’t post pics of 50/75/100 yard groups, I feel if I can hit 2-4” AR500 targets at 100 yards I’m doing good it will get me on target when I’m out hunting and then it’s all about practice practice practice, just keep going out and shooting.. 
    Ive also have taken time the last couple of weeks to re-think my Airguns and I’ve now got it down to my WC Airgun for small game and plinking, my HMx .357 will be my Varmit and plinking Airgun then my Texan 45 will be my heavy hitting Air Hog and lastly I’m going to order a HMx .25 for just Bench shooting and that is how I’m rounding off my Airguns and then I’ll be liquidating everything else…
    i also would like to get some time in shooting springers and such, think it would be fun and interesting…..

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    Imold
    Participant
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    FYI this is what I’m going to use to help me shoot standing, I’m disabled and it’s hard for me to shoot freehand so this will help me big time. I can just pick the gun up and shoot freehand and set it back down,won’t have to bend over all the time.

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    Deja
    Spectator
    Spectator

    You kinda nailed it. the only time when you really need high end scopes are during dusk for hunting and benchrest 50-150meter. It sure is nice to be able to see where your hitting and adjust accordingly . 

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    fpgt72
    Spectator
    Spectator

    Depends on the type of shooting, if you want to see what a gun will do off a rest and 10 shots are statistically where it is at…..your ratio is going to be the same if it is 10 shots or 1000 shots, statistically it will be the same.  

    Now in a hunting setting, I do agree you need to see what YOU can do with THAT GUN AND GLASS combo in the same setting you are going to be shooting in….if you are camped outside a barn zapping rats and off a rest one thing.  In a barn going after starlings and shooting this way and that this is another thing.  As you body moves here and there you will find you hit here and there….you have already found this out.

    On the subject of glass….IMHO there is good glass, as in bushnell and even tasco type offerings, there is real good glass, leupold, then there is real good glass, swarovski to use some examples.

    Are they worth it….only you can answer that question, but I can tell you there is a difference between each one.  Having had a Swarovski spotting scope that I could see 22 cal holes at 500 yards with yes there is a difference, nothing else was that clear…..just fantastic….was it worth it, I did not think so we are taking huge money in my world…perhaps not for some….but it was fantastic.  Same with the next step up, is a leupold better then a tasco, well it is more clear, but do you need that at 100 yards…..I don’t think so for me.  Other guns I own have this kind of glass on it, my air rifles do not, not because I see them as “lesser” or anything like that, it is just the use that (I) have for them do now warrant that type of glass.

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    CampFussell
    Participant
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    Norman

    I don’t hunt, so I prefer to sit or stand at a table and prefer shooting from a mounted bipod with a rear bag. That way I don’t have to lug around a a heavy front bag or front rest.
    I don’t really notice a big difference shooting from the picnic table and shooting off of bucket and sticks except my group size probably doubles, but that’s just me being unsteady on the bucket and trying to hold the trigger stick still? Still good enough to get 80% at a few matches.

    I like to shoot paper, so 5 shot and 10 shot groups seem normal to me. Especially after shooting a 25 shot BR card.

    As for high end scopes. I wish I would have never bought all those Sightrons…….they have spoiled me!
    I do need them for their range finding ability to shoot FT with though.LOL Oh, and I used hold overs at the matches. Can’t wrap my hard head around clicking 😉
    I don’t care that much for the Hawke optics and would just as soon have a Leapers. I’ve had several Leapers but every time I sold a gun last year the buyers wanted the scope with the gun 😉 Maybe I need to stick that Hawke on the next gun I sell???? LOL    My BSA 6-24×44 is my favorite cheaper scope. Probably getting ready to buy another Leapers to go on my first air pistola?

    Jimmy

     

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    Deleted Account

    The way I was taught, a man should lean to hit his mark under many different situations. You have to learn to adapt to the particular shooting situation your in and remember that to use next time.

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    Alan
    Participant
    Member

    There’s a lot of good stuff here.

    I agree with Mr. Diesel on the scope issue. The Hammers scope I use on my .25 Cobra cost less than $175, and is as clear as my $1,000 Leupold scope on my powder burner. And yes, even at twilight!

    My best accuracy is over bean bags, or a top my hands over bean bags. When I use the bipod, 50 yard groups double in size. This sort of addresses the hold issue brought up previously. 

    As for leaning in… This is the way I was taught from a very early age. If you’re an off-hand shooter, this is the ONLY way to get accuracy. But as we get older and less infirm, rests become a necessity. But finding the best rest method, is a trial and error for most of us. 

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    Prouzy
    Participant
    Member

    Great points!  Ive been all over the board on those.  Ive had same issue with bench to hunting.  I always sight in from a bench to be sure as many variables as possible are controlled to ensure things are working properly.  Some guns remain set for shooting from a bench, others I transition to situation position, pesting/hunting.  I will then transition to off hand, shooting stick or off a tripod.  I also wear different clothing that affects my holds. 

    I shoot 2-10 (or whatever mag capacity is) groups, after I have determined zero on a rifle and all is working properly.  I do two shot groups on big bores and occasional 3 shot when shooting untethered, as that is how it will be in the field.  I do however shoot larger groups when tethered a trigger time is required, but I find I would rather even shoot different POA (different targets) for bulls to practice on changes.  I like shooting mag capacity groups for the challenge, currently shooting 10 shot groups.  I think once sighted in, just depends on what challenge or need Im looking for in shooting.  

    I think I have run the continuum on PCPs and scopes too.  Some of my favorites have been the cheapos, one being QB78 I converted to HPA for my wife and another Im building into a .224.  At the moment, one of my most accurate and flavor of the month (I seem to change a lot) is a Hatsan Nova .22.  Less refined than higher costing, but after I “smoothed” it out, an amazing shooter.  I will say Ive had more issues with lower costing airguns than higher, but they are not without issues either.  I think at the end of the day, some lower cost shooters can be quite accurate, however my personal experience is always concerning reliability.  At the moment, Im on a low end kick, and happy with dollar value, although Ive recently returned 2 new rifles in last 2 weeks.

    Scopes are much the same, although I think its easier to get away with less expensive more consistently.  I have some expensive scopes where clarity is exceptional, but my go to for testing all new rifles is a scope I bought on a whim, CVLife 6-24 AO IR for $50.  It wont track very well, but I also use hold- over/under and the reticle is quite good for that.  My Hawke and Vortex are for sure clearer, but Ive used that CVLife on most every rifle Ive owned to check for accuracy.  
     

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    blackdiesel
    Participant
    Member

    Revisiting this old post.  I recently got my 25 cal Hatsan Nova modified and it's performing on par with some of the best guns out there.  It was always one of my most accurate guns.  Now with added CF bottle and valve modifications it gets 87 FPE (955 fps) for 30 shots with an ES of about 20 fps with 43 gr Eujin pellets.  It can push the 25 gr Kings over 1100 fps. I don't plan on running it this high because the Eujins are too large for the magazine and must be hand loaded.  I'm going to use the 34 gr JSB MK2s.  They will 55 FPE for 70 shots with a decent ES.  

     

     

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    nced
    Participant
    Member

    A few comments:

    "the first time I went hunting I noticed my shots hit at a different POI from where they hit from my zero.  And it was way off – like 2 inches"

    Same here with my HW break barrels if zero'd from a bench and shot with a different support in the woods.

    "now I shoot 99% standing from a Caldwell Magnum Fieldpod.  This simulates hunting conditions in the field a lot better."

     My offhand skills are so poor and I can't take a bench into the woods so I do almost all late season hunting (when bare trees made stalking difficult) by sitting on a bucket with back against a comfy tree trunk while resting the gun on cross sticks I carried with me. In the early season when the leaves were on the trees I would take my R9 and cross sticks for a support if there wasn't a solid tree for support. Also, when shooting squirrels I tried to keep all shots within my 30 yard zero distance and only extended the distance to about 40 yards under perfect still shooting conditions. Hummmm….I hardly ever take offhand shots at living critters. Matter of fact, offhand shots are so discouraging for me that I would simply pass up any shots that aren't supported!

    "A lot of people feel that 5 to 10 shots best show the accuracy of the gun. I believe that 3 shots will do the trick.  Me personally, I can hold my technique and concentration for 3 shots no problem.  Afterwards, if a shot strays, more than likely it’s me the shooter."

    I prefer shooting 5 shot groups but many times I'll have a nice tight 4 shot group and the 5th will be a flier like this group at 50 yards showing the "5th shot out". Was the "5th shot out" due to the pellet, the gun or the shooter……..well, probably! ;)

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    "I don’t need a scope with precise tracking because i use holdover/under all the time."

    I also only use holdover aiming, however I do need a scope that can "scope rangefind" for the hunter class field target matches I attend and I do need a scope that will hold up under the recoil of my piston guns without shaking loose. I never shoot past 55 yards (55 yards is the max target placement for field target), but that 10ish yard target with the 3/8" diameter killzone does require good optics and a sharp focus to separate the killzone from the pellet splatters all around!  I personally need both "scope rangefinding ability" (the hunter class is limited to 16x) and crisp optics from 10 yards to 55 yards for my hunter class field target shooting. I use the same rig for all my shooting and even use "hunter class field target techniques" for squirrel hunting.

    “show me something I can’t hit with a Leapers scope and regular PCP that I can hit with an expensive scope and expensive gun and I will get an expensive scope and gun.”

    Yep….you CAN probably hit the target regardless of the scope as long as the scope rangefinds good enough that you can determine the distance to the target and the resolution is good enough to see a shaded killzone in a dark target set on a dark lane. I have a couple leapers scopes (a $70 4-16×40 Adventure Class with AO and a $130 3-12×44 Accushot SWAT side focus) which I have used for hunter class field target but my $300 5-15×50 Hawke Panorama does work much better on the field target lanes!

    LOL….I've seen a couple high price scopes like the "$3500 March Optics High Master 10-60 x 56mm Tact Knob" clamped to field target guns during a match and a $1400 Sightron, so I'm guessing that it all depends on what the shooter is doing with his air gun and how deep his pockets are…..

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