My PSA(Public Service Announcement)

Forums General Discussion My PSA(Public Service Announcement)

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    ajshoots
    Participant
    Member

    MY StoryMy name is Aaron . I am soon to be 35 years old. A husband of nearly 12 years, a father of 2 and soon to be 3!! I was born and raised in Ohio and my only residence outside the Buckeye state was my time in the Army at Ft Benning. I was raised by farmers and living off the land and basic survival wasn’t a class in school, but a way of life. I was hunting with firearms by age 7 and have spent my life as a hunter that to this day still prefers wild game and homegrown fruits and vegetables over store bought any day!! I live a rather simple life compared to most which allows me a lot of time and freedom to do as I please.  A welder/fabricator and machine operator by trade my career path has led me back to my military days, as I have spent the past 9 years building military combat vehicles (specifically the Abrams main battle tank) for one of the world’s largest military contractors.

    My wife’s grandfather got me interested in airguns well over 10 years ago. My initial airgunning was more of a novelty that turned into a much greater interest that culminated into a passion. I have owned everything from the high end to the low end and everything in between. During my quest, my current place in the airgun world is a reflection of my dealings with the airgun industry coupled with my personal desires of what I want from an airgun. That has led me to the Marauder as my favorite platform, a platform that I base my tuning and modification business around. After bad deals with the sole importer of a number of imported guns and not happy with the price of other offerings, I decided on a platform that had a great following , a great price, the best parts availability, coupled with probably the best aftermarket support of any other brand/model.

     My experience and opinion is mine and mine only. I accept the fact that everyone has different experiences and opinions. It is what used to make the forums great!! The current trend on all the forums tends to be the current mindset of the public, which is plagued by an inability to accept facts over fiction and the desire to hide behind screen names on social media and push personal agendas. Instead of hiding behind screen names, trying to profit from shady tactics, and an overall lack of decency on the forums, be HONEST!! The direction of the industry is sad. Nearly everything is way overpriced and of inferior quality. Sales tactics are worse than a buy here pay here  car salesman. There are still a lot of good people in the industry and even more wonderful forum members spread between all the various forums and fortunately some of them frequent multiple forums. I am a young man and surely can’t take credit for most of what I have learned. Folks like Harry, Bob Sterne, LD, Timmy Mac, Mike Reames, Motorhead, Oldpro, and many others have done the leg work that has enabled me to simply run with their ideas. I hope to one day be one of those that helps others learn and makes advancements in the airgun world!!

    Our motives for posting should be to help others and contribute to the advancement of our hobby. Is it too much to ask that we all be honest about our identities, honest about our motives, and help to change the culture from negative to positive in regards to all airgun forums? We shouldn’t be censored and shouldn’t be prohibited from exposing the shady ways of the industry regardless if they are a sponsor or not!! Facts should rule and not BS opinions or sponsor guarded talk!!

    I encourage everyone to tell everyone who you really are, why you feel like you do regarding your opinions and overall just be honest and forthcoming!! The behind the scenes paid spokesman, shady business tactics, and overall dishonesty of the forums needs to stop and we can change that!! I am not an insider or paid spokesman. I am just a passionate airgunner who knows where he fits in and would appreciate unbiased posts and info and an overall more positive environment amongst all the airgun forums.

    Thanks for your time

    Aaron

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    AZBOBCAT
    Participant
    Member

    Good Post….

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    rockymtbiker
    Participant
    Member

    Thanks for the thoughtful post, Aaron; I totally concur with your thoughts.

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    NeilClague
    Spectator
    Spectator

    AJ I agree with everything you have said, but you also have to put yourself in the place of the forum owner. If they allow too much sponsor bashing the sponsors will withdraw their sponsorship and without sponsors you will not have the forum. The owners have to balance the 2 against each other and figure out a happy medium, where members are allowed to vent, but there has to be a certain amount of control over what is said and how long it is allowed to continue. Just like some free papers you get out there, without their advertisers there would be no free paper, people complain about all of the adverts in magazines, but the adverts keep the magazines in the red. Just be a bit more understanding of the position we might be putting the forum owners in when we bash their sponsors. I have spoken out against certain sponsors practices in the past and still will if I see something blatantly wrong, but we do have to be aware of going too far, and risking sponsors pulling out, I am not sure about where you stand, but I enjoy being on this forum and find it allows more free speech than the previous forum I was banned from for speaking out.
    I have nothing to do with the running of this forum, I just do not want to see it going down because of sponsor bashing, if you have to say something about a sponsor, try and make it factual, rather than make it look like a form of bashing, you can not argue with facts, but opinions can always be argued about. Sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us and we vent without thinking of the consequences, I know I am guilty of this myself, so now I try my best to bite my tongue and cool down before making replies to comments I don’t like. I hope the owner allows your post to stand it might be beneficial for both sides to know how members and the people who run this forum feel about this subject, all the best, Neil.

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    Rocko
    Participant
    Member

    Good luck with that !!  Every time I post similar complaints on various forums, my posts mysteriously disappear.  As will this one.

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    hawken54
    Participant
    Member

    I give the owners of this Forum some credit, and im sure (hope) they will let this thread continue and maybe shed some light on the difficulties of keeping it up and running smoothly, I’m sure there is a balancing act that takes place. This is one of the better Forums I attend. I have read warnings that certain posts (posters) are going astray but that is better than posts and people disappearing without notice as on other boards. As for putting up personal information that is great, but some of us in sensitive secure work, where our internet activities are looked into, we can only put so much out there. I understand that is few and far between but I also know there is a lot of trepidation and fear about putting personal information out there, and that is totally understandable given the nature and criminal activity on the internet. Hell, look at all the hacking and info stealing on some of the most secure systems there are. Getting personal information on people on a gun site would be like opening a Twinkie.

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    Beach-gunner
    Participant
    Member

    Dennis Shirley, here in Gulf Shores AL.  I’m close in age to you Aaron and had a similar childhood growing up, I’m a child of a Forrester and was introduced to the outdoors and hunting at an early age.  Some of my fondest memories as a child are from time spend by my self with my Benjamin 357 pump 22 cal learning how to shoot.  Spent many years away from Airguns….caught on to Ted’s vids… And WOW has the Airgun changed!  Last 14 months I find myself falling in love all over again!!  I overwelmingly agree with your post Aaron in mind and spirit.

    As Neil stated these forums are a Commercial Venture of the forum owner and their sponsors, and not really much else!  Take a look below at the numerous sponsors!  Neil being one of them, I’m not surprised with his post….it makes since… The short time that I’ve been back into the sport I’ve noticed the change in the purity of these forums.  And have had posts disappear because I made positive comments about an industry supplier who was not a sponsor on this site, I think sadly, but a had a great experience with the guy.  This Commercialism is a natural process in the Airgun industry.  Understand it and take it for what it’s worth.  Read the last sentence of Neil’s post pretty much sums up the natural process of a forum with a captive audience, I too hope the sponsors and forum managers with allow this thread remain.

    With all that bein said.. I very much appreciate the purity of learning from various posters on many different forums, keep it coming and understand the Car Salsmen will always be in most of the forums.  Thank you all for all the I’ve learned from many of you!

    Dennis Shirley
    Beach-gunner

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    loafr98
    Participant
    Member

    Great post Ajshoots and a huge thank-you for all you’ve done with the Marauder platform. Your sharing of tips and information on this and other forums keeps me, and I am sure many others ” in the game”. That .17 gen 1 Marauder you sold me last year is one of my favorites. I love this forum for all the great info I’ve gleaned from my daily visits. I tend to put the opinions and bashing aside, it’s not hard to figure out who has an agenda. There is a ton of useful info here. I love learning.  Norm from Niagara Falls , NY

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    Alan
    Participant
    Member

    I agree. There is a related issue which has become one of my pet peeves—the power struggle! 

    Those of us who are in, or have been in, the powder burning arena, have seen a whole-new line of ammo, primarily the short magnum series from Winchester. There are others too, but this one stands out, because they’re trying to capitalize on the PPC and other, short, fat, and very accurate cartridges. Well, it isn’t happening, and it is not liable to. To me, at least, it is just a case of… “Here, buy this! It is, after all, new”!

    A similar thing seems to be happening in the airgun world! With NP, NP2, reversed NP, you name it. Problem is, none of them shoot well. I’ve tried three from three different makers (and continents), and the groups look like they were shot with a scatter gun! 

    Oh! Did I mention the new powder burners cost more? Compare that issue with the price of some of the PCP stuff! Heck, a $500 Crosman PCP shoots just as well, and even with some trigger and other simple mods, the total cost is still under $650. Compare that to some of the imported hardware costing upwards of $4,000! For what? Because it looks like a Star Wars laser weapon? 

    I can’t speak for others, but I still covet my pre 1964, Winchester Model 70 in 30-06. It still shoots better than 1 inch groups at 100 yards, and operationally has withstood the onslaught of newer, supposedly better firearms. I think the airgun industry is taking the same A train, if you get my point!

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    NeilClague
    Spectator
    Spectator

    Beach-gunner the main problem I have with bashing sponsors on forums is because a lot of people do it without even giving the retailer or maker the chance to rectify something, they just go onto a forum and badmouth them or their products. The Internet is a great thing but it allows people to add comments and effect peoples pockets for no good reason. I have seen it  myself, someone badmouthed one of my newly produced products, the product got changed very soon after the 1st one was made and it really improved it. Instead of contacting me the customer badmouthed me on a forum. If he had contacted me I would have explained that they had been improved and I would have replaced it for him at no cost, instead I go onto a forum and see someone badmouthing me and my product. Unless a customer gets back to me and tells me that they have a problem, how am I supposed to fix it? With input from customers I am able to make changes and improve the product I am making. This is why there has to be a certain amount of control over this type of thing. If the same person had posted on here I would have complained to the person running the forum, not because of a bad remark, but because the person did not have the courtesy to allow me to address the problem. As a maker I know that new products might need tweaking and if a customer lets me know there is a problem and I make changes, he will get a replacement and will also get to keep the original. I think it is in everyone’s best interests to try and address a problem with the dealer, maker etc and try and resolve it. If it can not be resolved then I would advocate posting on the forums, but on the feedback pages and not on the air gun forum itself, there is a right and wrong way to post on forums, Neil.

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    ajshoots
    Participant
    Member

    I have owned and operated a website which included a forum. It was not related to airguns, but the principles and practices are basically the same. I fully understand the sponsors and what you can and can’t let go in regards to sponsor bashing. Sorry, but that was not the intent of my post.

    There are a number of people with agendas that post to the airgun forums. What the agenda is, paid for or not, is my issue. I operate on facts. Being able to provide proof of your statements holds alot of water with me. I would just like to see a change towards more clarity and fact based opinions and responses. Actually I totally agree with you Neil!! I know you are one if the good guys. I have seen you selflessly give away expensive items to help forum members. Not to mention your input on the forums. I have seen you get raked across the coals, so I understand your point. What I am after is a stop to the bs posting towards vendors like yourself. Namely unwarranted claims of bad products that are simply the stupidity of your customer, not the fault of your products. Again, FACTS!! I understand that alot of people ask for opinions on forums as well. That is fine, but the lack of first hand experienced opinions run rampant on airgun forums that can be very counterproductive for new and veteran airgunners alike.

    This is also geared towards those that post replies but fail to mention that they are trying to persuade you to buy a product they sell or are affiliated with in a shady sly manner that some of us see and know what is going on, but many others don’t.

    Overall I am fed up with people taking advantage of others in one way shape or form and hiding behind keyboards.

    I will end my rant. Please stay on track and positive in your responses.

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    NeilClague
    Spectator
    Spectator

    AJ that is what I like about this forum, there is a small place next to the members name where you can give them a positive or negative for their post, it also allows you to comment on why the post was left a negative. I think if the member gets nothing but negative responses the mods do something about his or her status as a member. Because it could be that the person is just on the forum to rile people up, not something wanted on any forum. When I have seen a post that was totally bogus or incorrect I have used this feature and posted why. if it is used by more members then it might help weed out the troublemakers and keep the good guys who really enjoy the sport, on here. I very much agree with you about people with agenda’s. trying to sell their wares without being a sponsor, or directing members to a seller they might be tied to in some way. It is always difficult for the people running the forums to catch them at it, but it is not for the want of trying, I know on here they do try and prevent this type of behavior. I actually became a sponsor, not to get more work, because I can not handle any more, but because I want to be supportive of this forum and the people who run it. I am pretty sure with the help of the solid members who really love air gunning the forum will do well and the people just hanging around making stupid comments will soon vanish, Neil.

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    spysir
    Participant
    Member

     Aaron,
    Nice post and I believe ( unless someone troll the heck out of it ) it will stay.
     I’m John, I live in Liberty TN and have been shooting pre-charged- and other-  ( that’s what we used to call them) since 1990. I remember the old paper monthly ( but now forget the name) we used to have before 1990. I have purchased and sold a good bit over 200 airgun’s, The times have changed. There have been advertiser free forums, as far as I can find now pretty much only aigunadvice is advertiser free and unfortunately it gets little attention these days as there is a WEALTH of tuning info and FACT there.
     The first Internet forums were hosted by people who just loved airguns, there really was NO money to be made, again times change. This does seem to be one of the very best U. S. based these days ( I read over seas forum’s also).  This forum has “sponsor’s” -. I mean I hope the company’s with links are kicking in a buck or two-  just like so many now, but here you CAN say “I found a defect on my new/old XXXX airgun/other and you’ll still be able to come back and post. As it SHOULD be.  I think people SHOULD be able to say “I had a problem with ……. ” before or after contacting whomever made such product. NOT to be confused with TRASHING a dealer/maker or stalking them, …..
    as long as the facts are the facts, all the facts and only the facts. And if you post of an issue before a dealer can make something right ( and they do not all always do so  but we’d like to think most do)  courtesy say’s you should come back and post what the resolution was.  I say this because some folks like to DIY and if they are trying to copy ( NOT for profit just fun the fun of making there own …  .)  and it is good to know if something that seemed like it should work did not and why.

     I know my punctuation et al.  isn’t tooo good, pardon.

    I really liked it when most forums had IP’s and email addy’s listed, certainly made it easier to figure out who was who and I do know people who work in job’s where discretion was needed, they all seemed to know how to deal with that. I do understand fear of theft but and you can post, letting folks know who you are ( to some extent, as in always using the same log in on every forum everytime  with or with out an addy).

     I believe the fact this forum will allow you to say I had a problem with X rifle, scope, other,  out in the open is a good thing. It not only helps consumer’s but the manufactures as well as it seems ( again perhaps due to these darn “modern times) many manufactures rush a product to market in an effort to gain market share before being left in the dust.  I know of only one manufacture ( and it is the sales rep I believe ?) who get’s upset if you try to help them, pointing out either error’s in product or literature , or , the rest seem pretty nice about it and seem to pay attention and try to fix things.  The dealer’s are slightly different  ( and I do know some of their mark up’s and sales figures just because I care to know and have meet so many people into airguns) but…………..    . 
     
     Airgun’s are NOT necessary . They are FUN, and can be practical, they can save money on shooting practice, improve marksmanship, lead to friendships, on and on.

      “I” think forum’s if at all possible should have the same basic rules as Field Target ( my rules version) 1st SAFETY, 2nd  have fun.  Naturally safety is not only about YOU. It is about everyone around you also and goes both way’s. And FUN should be the same, you have fun, I’ll have fun, everyone encourage everyone to have fun.

     I didn’t get to do any airgun shooting, tinkering or other airgun ….  today, but I read about some other folks doing so and it made me happy.

       Alrighty,  I am off to see if I can figure out how to ad my email ( which I have had for years) to my profile.

    John
     

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    Beach-gunner
    Participant
    Member

    Neil and others,  I was just pointing out the under current behind some of these Airgun forums.  I’m sure you have to best of my knowledge a fine business with great product and service.  Please understand that you happened to be the first sponsor to comment on Aaron’s post, therefore the point I was making about Airgun forums was relevant as to the importance of the relationship between the forums and sponsors.  I was not singling you out and am sorry if it seemed that way, not used your product before so I’m ignorant to its quality, and your customer service.  As you have stated I’m sure it is fantastic, you posted because you care and should be commended.

    The purpose of my reply to Aaron’s post was to simply say…..understand the relationship, eat the meat and throwaway the bones.  Read the post and take what’s valuable to your continued learning and forget about those with an Axe to grind.

    Dennis Shirley
    Beach-gunner

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    NeilClague
    Spectator
    Spectator

    Spysir why would you even want to post something that could hurt a maker or dealer, before even giving them a chance to rectify it, sorry sir but this is the type of customer small makers like myself can do without. The problem is you talk about facts, funny how the facts as presented by the customer are always different to those posted by the dealer or other party. So rather than posting something that can harm someones good name, why not give them the chance to rectify it before posting anything. If you feel the need to post about the event then post it after you have got it resolved, at least that way there are not negative comments out there about someone who might not even be at fault. I know that from my own perspective if I see someone posting bad things about me it will not do anything to help them get a resolution, especially if I feel it is only posted to harm my name and for no other reason. To me when I see something like this it is because the person wants to use the forums post as leverage to get the dealer to do the right thing, which is really bad, the dealer should do the right thing from the start without having someone post on a forum to try and gain leverage. I will bend over backwards to make sure a customer is happy with what I make for him, but when I see badmouthing for no reason the chances of their getting any help from me goes out the window. I also tend to try and choose my customers carefully, if I see someone who is always complaining on the forums then i stay away from them, so it can also be harmful for the person making the post. This is NOT just my perspective as a maker, as a consumer I always give the person who sold something to me the chance to make it right before I say or do anything else, it just seems the right way of doing business, at least in the world I live in, Neil.

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    Tominco
    Participant
    Member

    NeilClague – “if you have to say something about a sponsor, try and make it factual, rather than make it look like a form of bashing, you can not argue with facts, but opinions can always be argued about. Sometimes we let our emotions get the best of us and we vent without thinking of the consequences, I know I am guilty of this myself, so now I try my best to bite my tongue and cool down before making replies to comments I don’t like.”
    That’s the right attitude, right there! 
    I’ve seen it too where folks try to pass off their opinions as fact. Usually the next thing to happen is someone argues the opinion and thus tensions rise. You’ve got to realize how your posts are going to read to others before you hit “submit”. I find it helpful to ask myself if what I’m typing is fact or opinion and does it actually read that way. You’ll see a lot of facts in my posts unless I’m not sure, in which case, I’ll put “I think”, “It looks as if”, or something similar. I always highlight my OPINION in some way or another saying that it is my opinion, that way there’s no confusion. 
    I’ve also seen this forum being bashed for supposedly being “bought and paid for” by certain manufacturers. That’s simply not the case. I’ve seen posts illustrating issues with many manufacturers including ones that sponsor this forum. However, when those issues are found to be non-factual with no supporting evidence to back the claim, that seems to be the type of thread that spirals out of control and ultimately disappearing in part or entirely. The forum owners are forced to act on these types of posts. It’s propaganda and needs to be stopped. It really doesn’t matter whether it’s manufacturer “A” or “B”, non-factual bashing of products is just lame. It, once again, amounts to someone posting their opinion and trying to pass it off as fact. 
    NielClague again “I think it is in everyone’s best interests to try and address a problem with the dealer, maker etc and try and resolve it. If it can not be resolved then I would advocate posting on the forums, but on the feedback pages and not on the air gun forum itself, there is a right and wrong way to post on forums, Neil.”
    Again Neil, you said it… When a new product arrives to a consumer defective in some way, it is definitely a shame. But the first step is not to go directly to the forum and advertise your issues for all to see. Granted, it might help some people as a watch out situation but, it doesn’t solve your issue. It also puts a negative light on the manufacturer, retailer, and product without giving them a chance to make it right. The first step is to contact the place you bought it from and explain the issue to them. Many times this is the solution. Also, if the retailers are seeing repetative problems, they will contact the manufacturer and explain what they are seeing which helps ALL of us. If you run into a dead end, then by all means, post it up and see if there’s someone with the experience to help you. There’s an INCREDIBLE amount of knowledge on the forums!
    AJshoots – “Namely unwarranted claims of bad products that are simply the stupidity of your customer, not the fault of your products. Again, FACTS!!” – agreed!
    Here’s another example of abuse… If YOU break it, then it’s on YOU. Not the product! You broke it, you need to own up to it. It sucks but it happens. Complaining about it on a forum trying to get others to sympathize is lame and it won’t get you shooting any faster. Again go back to where you bought it and find out what the next step is. 

    Like Neil said, the accuracy option on this forum helps others see the credibility of the person. It also helps the “folks in charge” find people who are abusing the forum, being anti-productive, personally attacking other people or specific products, being generally disruptive for no reason, making no sense, pushing agendas, and so forth. By using that feature, we all help ourselves and each other. 
    ​Tom

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    fe7565
    Participant
    Member

    EDIT:  Tom above stole most of my thunder.  He is right on.   Here is my now not so relevant anymore post below :)
    ==========================================================

    Ajshoots, thank you for your post.  Forum members should post FACTS, or do some research first, or state if not sure about something.  Do not post innuendos and generalizations because it just leads to conflict and is a disservice to other members/manufacturers/sellers.  If the FACTS are posted (good and bad) all of us can learn from them and make better decisions.

    At the same time, Forum administrators should welcome FACTS or questions even if they are non-flattering.  If members and forum owners do not follow this road they eventually lose credibility and slip into oblivion as they trying to hold on to power with iron-fisted censorship relying on authoritarian rules that would make any two-bit dictator proud.  At the same time members should realize that Forum owners/admin have to pay the bills, maintain certain basic rules (non-political, non-racial,vulgarity, etc), and are also walking a fine line when filtering out BS from FACTS, or separating mistaken/misguided statements from deliberate smear attacks.

    Forum owners should state up front their current sponsorship affiliation.  If you are “not on the take”, you have nothing to hide or be embarrassed about. It’s a business and a hobby for some which means you get to try certain toys for free and may be able to keep them or derive sponsorship dollars. It does not take a genius to figure out which way a forum owner leans, and eventually one figures it out why…so may as well state it up front.  Most of us are big boys and girls and if the forum is upfront with us we can decide to stay/participate or instead move on.

    There is always going to be garbage lurking around these forums…but the forum members if treated with respect and empowered by the Forum will always be in the best position to call these garbage out and thus contributing to keep the Forum relevant and true.
     

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    spysir
    Participant
    Member

    Neil,  “I”  wouldn’t “post something that could hurt a maker or dealer”  ( unless well disserved, an  example might be  Filarms)   and “I” dont’t think anyone but a troll ( lack of better term) would.
     But I DO understand some newbe type posting at night ( dealer closed and everyone wants their new toy working RIGHT NOW eh?) posting perhaps, 
       ” I got a new X model rifle, filled it once enjoyed shooting it, fill it again and now it wont fire”  hoping someone might have a simple fast solution. It can take day’s to get through to some dealers/makers  That does make sense to me.

    My post- “I had a problem with ……. ” before or after contacting whomever made such product. NOT to be confused with TRASHING a dealer/maker or stalking them, …..
    as long as the facts are the facts, all the facts and only”
    (I did mean to say only facts there, sorry)     You did read “NOT to be confused with TRASHING a dealer/maker” right?

     My post-  ”  And if you post of an issue before a dealer can make something right ( and they do not all always do so  but we’d like to think most do)  courtesy say’s you should come back and post what the resolution was”    NOTE – ” courtesy say’s you should come back and post what the resolution was”  Because it is good to know how things are handled by X business.

     Sorry too hard to “”  “” stuff .

     I am not at all certain what I did to upset you, I’m one of the easiest going folks around , never have I done business with you and as far as I can remember I have never even mentioned your name to anyone.

      Airguns are fun!  Hobbies are fun!  Try to have some fun!

    John

     

     

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    NeilClague
    Spectator
    Spectator

    John I just have a problem with posting anything, until you have given the person the chance to correct it. In the case of small makers like myself posts can be very damaging, ok so something does not work the way you like it, give me or any maker the chance to put it right. Posting that it has been put  right after you have already made a post about something  does not work, the damage has already been done! One person posting something bad about a product can negate 50 or more positive feedback’s about them. So personally I just do NOT see any reason to post anything until you have addressed the problem and either have a good working unit in your hands or something not worth a damn, then write about it afterwards, instead of the negative for the seller it would hopefully then be a positive because he had acted promptly and taken care of the issue and replaced the item for you, in which case no damage has been done to his name, or product from your initial post. You mention courtesy, well this is a matter of courtesy, allow them to address the problem, BEFORE you write about it and do possible damage to someones reputation, Neil.

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    Ronin001
    Participant
    Member

    “ajshoots”MY Story

    “My name is Aaron Robnolte. I am soon to be 35 years old. A husband of nearly 12 years, a father of 2 and soon to be 3!! I was born and raised in Ohio and my only residence outside the Buckeye state was my time in the Army at Ft Benning….”

    Good post Aaron! 

    Liam 
     

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